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Unexpected findings and promoting monocausal claims, a cautionary tale.

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Certainly an interesting view... From someone who wrote a thesis "The Case of the Triggered Memory-Serendipitous Discovery and the Ethics of Clinical Research"
https://dalspace.library.dal.ca/handle/10222/63140

Samofserendip has a wordpress blog btw. (no direct links thanks)

A quote from the paper:

Samantha Marie Copeland said:
The projected values of new research directions are often framed by monocausal models of CFS. Empirical investigations into cognitive behavioural therapy and graded exercise therapy as treatments for CFS have been interpreted as demonstrations that the syndrome is primarily or solely psychiatric in nature [13]. This, combined with the lack of a physiological explanation for symptoms, has frequently led to the conclusion that the pathophysiology of CFS can be reduced to a psychological cause [14–16]. This tendency towards psychological reduction has generated opposition among researchers and especially patients.
Historically, the categorization of CFS as a primarily psychological disorder has led to the stigmatization of patients and to the (perceived and actual) neglect of the syndrome by medical practitioners and research [12,14,15,17]. On the other hand, research into biological causes and related interventions has yet to yield sufficient explanations or effective treatments for more than small samples of CFS patients [18–20]. Thus, reductive monocausal approaches to CFS have so far been unable to establish an effective standard of care for CFS patients as a group. The case I analyse in this paper stands both as a cautionary tale for grounding the projected value of an unexpected finding in a single causal relationship and also against promoting a monocausal approach to CFS. As I conclude, this unexpected finding is rather likely to have diverse valuable contributions to make to CFS research and may ground a causally complex approach to treating patients diagnosed with the syndrome.

The major argument that an RCT itself doesn't provide evidence for mechanism, therefore theorising about how the Rituximab may help patients shouldn't be used for justification for further Rituximab trials is weak and just shows ignorance.

The fact is the primary justification is still benefit of the drug for patients. The secondary justification is the begging of the question - if b-cell depletion leads to improvement, then somehow b cells must be involved.

Samantha Marie Copeland said:
Finally, when this theoretical claim is emphasized as the aim of ongoing empirical research, consequent assumptions about the generalizability of research results can harm patients. Institutions often limit treatment options for patients who may require diverse approaches [60]. Indirectly, harms can take the form of reducing or dismissing patient experiences [17,61]. Assumptions are made that because a treatment works for many patients in what is known to
be a broad and diverse category, it will work for all, despite claims from patients themselves to the contrary. This has happened with regard to the positive results that cognitive behavioural therapy and graded exercise therapy have produced in groups of patients diagnosed with CFS, when they have been used as justification for reducing the treatment options available to CFS patients, possibly even causing direct harms to some [49,62,63].

This is a fair cop - and of course Ritixumab has its risks too.
 
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Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
"I argue that a monocausal claim cannot be correctly asserted..." Good, so we're all agreed. And who is making such a claim? No one. Great. So let's move on and go and have a nice cup of tea.

Oh, wait... what's this all about... "I argue that a monocausal claim cannot be correctly asserted, either on the basis of the single case of an unexpected, although positive, result or on the basis of the empirical research that has followed up on that result." Sure, a monoclausal claim can't be made based on a single (unexpected) positive case, but neither a monocausal case has been made and nor has there been just a single (unexpected) positive case. As for the empirical research that has followed the initial chance observations, it's a fascinating and promising work in progress, upon which the researchers have not made any monocausal claims.

I don't have a major problem with Copeland's conclusion: "In sum, when an unexpected finding occurs in clinical practice or medical research, the value of following up on that finding is to be found not in the projected value of a singular causal relationship inferred from the finding but rather in the process of research that follows."

But I find the rest of the abstract confusing, bizarre, illogical, and waste of time. Is the author really trying to convince the public, media and scientific communities not to speculate?

To suggest that all speculation is harmful seems like rather an authoritarian and controlling thing to say. What is a hypothesis if it's not speculation? And hypotheses are a fundamental part of the scientific process. Copeland implies that there are unwelcome and deleterious "risks involved in drawing a theoretical hypothesis from an unexpected observation". But how would science have progressed if unexpected leads had never been followed and hypothesis were never formed on the basis of observations?

The focus of Copeland's criticisms seems to be allegations in relation to "researchers' speculations that their research results indicate a causal mechanism for CFS". But speculation as to a 'casual' mechanism is not the same as speculation as to a 'monocausal' mechanism. The author has carefully avoided directly accusing the researchers themselves of making monocausal claims, but has (neglectfully or carefully) conflated issues and used phrasing which makes it appear that the researchers have made monocausaul claims.

As for speculation relating to casual mechanisms, why on earth would researchers not speculate about the reasons a certain treatment might be working? What are they supposed to do? Switch off their brains and abandon all scientific curiosity?

She says: "I argue that a monocausal claim cannot be correctly asserted, either on the basis of the single case of an unexpected, although positive, result or on the basis of the empirical research that has followed up on that result." But who is arguing that there is a single cause for all ME/CFS patients? No one. (Apart from the biopsychosocial school.) So, what's the author talking about? Is she conflating issues? If Copeland is claiming that the Norwegian researchers have speculated that there is a single cause for ME/CFS then she is wrong; they haven't, and this paper is based on a false premise. But if she's muddling and conflating issues and she is not making such a claim, then what's the whole paper about, exactly?

To be fair, I've only read the abstract, but the argument in the abstract is childlike and illogical. My understanding of it is that Copeland doesn't want the scope of CFS research to be widened and to follow new research leads because it will result in a break-out of scientific and public curiosity, and a resulting narrowing or restricting of the field, especially treatment choices? :confused: Eh? o_O How does that work? This abstract would have been OK as an A'level student blog, but to have it published in a scientific journal makes a mockery of scientific journals.
 
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Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
@Kati this seems to be Samantha Copeland, specialized in philosophy of science, theory of knowledge, and applied philosophy.

A few titles coming from her research project team:

- Are physiotherapists the new philosophers?
- Integrating philosophical perspectives into person-centered healthcare.
- a Phd thesis on serendipity.

Need I say more?
Funny but she keyworded he paper with serendipity.

This paper gives me a flavor of the top of the pyramidal scheme leader telling his disciples they have to publish anti-ME and anti-science paper. Funny that Crawley recently visited Norway too. Coincidence? :rolleyes:
 

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
I can't tell from the abstract exactly what the author is getting at, but it could be an argument that unknown co-factors can be involved in the cause of an illness even if treating only a known factor is enough to improve or cure it. Put another way, "cure does not infer cause." [Although "cure" would seem to infer a necessary perpetuating factor.]

For example: Eradicating helicobacter pylori cures peptic ulcers, but since 80% of people harbor h. pylori regardless of ulcer status, some other/additional factor must be involved in the cause of peptic ulcers. Thus, it would be wrong to say the presence of h. pylori alone causes peptic ulcers.

So long as the co-factor is unknown, it could be anything, which is why some people still talk about psychological co-factors in the development of peptic ulcers. [Or, it could be something else, like genetic susceptibility.]

I'm pretty sure that psychological stress has (rightly or wrongly) also been suggested as a factor in the development of autoimmune diseases. So, this article might be trying to argue that psychological factors could still be important in the development of ME/CFS, even if it turns out that ME/CFS is a treatable autoimmune disease.

Or maybe that's not what the article is about at all.
 
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lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I'm pretty sure that psychological stress has (rightly or wrongly) also been suggested as a factor in the development of autoimmune diseases. So, this article might be trying to argue that psychological factors could still be important in the development of ME/CFS, even if it turns out that ME/CFS is a treatable autoimmune disease.

How can misbehaving Bcells be explained by psychological stress (what ever that may be)?
 

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
How can misbehaving Bcells be explained by psychological stress (what ever that may be)?

I don't know, and I'm not promoting this view, but the assertion of a link between stress and autoimmunity is out there, such as in this 2011 paper in PNAS...
Chronic stress, glucocorticoid receptor resistance, inflammation, and disease risk
Chronic psychological stress is associated with a greater risk of depression, cardiovascular disease (CVD), diabetes, autoimmune diseases, upper respiratory infections (URIs), and poorer wound healing.
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/16/5995.full

...and this from 2007 in Autoimmunity Reviews...
Stress as a trigger of autoimmune disease
Recent reviews discuss the possible role of psychological stress, and of the major stress-related hormones, in the pathogenesis of autoimmune disease. It is presumed that the stress-triggered neuroendocrine hormones lead to immune dysregulation, which ultimately results in autoimmune disease, by altering or amplifying cytokine production.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S156899720700170X

Of course, this should probably be taken with a grain of salt, since you can probably find studies that link stress to nearly everything.


 
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alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The major argument that an RCT itself doesn't provide evidence for mechanism, therefore theorising about how the Rituximab may help patients shouldn't be used for justification for further Rituximab trials is weak and just shows ignorance.
An RCT does not in fact provide proof of mechanism. That requires other research. The point, though, is that it is very much a major reason for such further research. You need to follow clues. Research does not occur in a vacuum.

An RCT might have positive result based on a theory that is wrong. A failed RCT might be from inappropriate execution (and appropriate actions figured out later with the benefit of hindsight) or other confounds, and not from bad hypotheses.

I doubt many or even any have fallen into the trap of presuming mechanisms, and especially not the researchers involved. Yet to design a study in a narrow area then some hypotheses are necessary.

All this talk of psychological causes, for diseases with strong physical manifestations, as inappropriate if monocausal claims are made, and no question as to the very existence of psychogenic disease?
 
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TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
The media and public have taken up researchers' speculations that their research results indicate a causal mechanism for CFS - consequently, patients now have great hope that 'tthe cause' of CFS has been found, and thus, a cure is sure to follow.
If this isn't a strawman I don't know what is. Does she provide a reference for the researchers' speculations, or has she just made them up so that she can knock them down again? Does she know any patients, has she spoken to any? How does she know that we all have great hope that 'the cause' has been found? Again, she just makes shit up so that she can knock it down again. Is PR full of claims that the cause has been found and a cure is sure to follow? All she has to do is read our discussions here to know that whilst we are hopeful and encouraged, we are also much better informed and realistic than she portrays us.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
If this isn't a strawman I don't know what is. Does she provide a reference for the researchers' speculations, or has she just made them up so that she can knock them down again? Does she know any patients, has she spoken to any? How does she know that we all have great hope that 'the cause' has been found? Again, she just makes shit up so that she can knock it down again. Is PR full of claims that the cause has been found and a cure is sure to follow? All she has to do is read our discussions here to know that whilst we are hopeful and encouraged, we are also much better informed and realistic than she portrays us.

Philosophers are trained not to take notice of evidence but to reference 'important' philosophers, like Quine, Davidson or Mackey (no I had never heard of them before doing philosophy either). They are trained to bullshit the other man down with valid arguments. What they miss is that if their premises are unfounded their valid arguments are unsound (a technical philosophical point) and therefore wrong. Since they have a sheaf of unfounded premises at hand from important philosophers the whole thing is a bit like a game of charades. It is harmless enough when carried out in shabby philosophy departments hidden round the back of the biomedical science block in run down terraced houses or Nissen huts but it is not harmless if it is mixed with real life.
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
Is this some sort of anti-parismony rant?

We all know parsimony, if not in name, at least in spirit. The idea that if two explanations are equally good at dealing with the facts, you take the simpler one. Psychological explanations of illness are pretty complex and byzantine - you have to propose highly dysfunctional thinking and behaviour, explain how that can suddenly emerge out of a single acute event, and also deal with why some people maintain this dysfunctionality while others don't (usually by invoking a role for problematic personality traits and for social structures like this forum that perpetuate the dysfunctional thinking). Its pretty complex when you think about it. And of course largely untestable.

Perhaps this article is a preemptive strike - the author is worried that people will take Occam's razor to their elaborate psychosocial accounts of illness and cut them to pieces? Like what happened to the psychosocial model of peptic ulcer after the annoying microbiologists came along? Those guys are still not forgiven for ruining a nice story - the psychosocial folks are still hanging onto that 30% of unexplained cases, to claim there's still a "psychosocial component"?

I am starting to rant...
 
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Cheshire

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
Psychological explanations of illness are pretty complex and byzantine - you have to propose highly dysfunctional thinking and behaviour, explain how that can suddenly emerge out of a single acute event, and also deal with why some people maintain this dysfunctionality while others don't (usually by invoking a role for problematic personality traits and for social structures like this forum that perpetuate the dysfunctional thinking). Its pretty complex when you think about it. And of course largely untestable.

The chain of causation is quite complex, but at the same time the whole model relies on a very simplistic vision of human psychology, that dysfunctional thoughts are enough to explain everything.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Psychological explanations of illness are pretty complex and byzantine - you have to propose highly dysfunctional thinking and behaviour, explain how that can suddenly emerge out of a single acute event, and also deal with why some people maintain this dysfunctionality while others don't (usually by invoking a role for problematic personality traits and for social structures like this forum that perpetuate the dysfunctional thinking). Its pretty complex when you think about it. And of course largely untestable.
And in the case of many so-called MUSes, you should also explain the myriad physiological abnormalities.

PS I wonder if this might explain why psychobabble is off the deep end ... its basically making the non-empirical mistake, at least in a scientific sense.
 
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