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Undermethylation - understanding the cause

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by pgoody, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. pgoody

    pgoody

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    Hello, I am new to this forum, but I have been reading a great deal of the posts about methylation and b12 and other treatments. In my case, I have been researching a great deal about methylation after reading Dr. William Walsh's book Nutrient Power because I suffer from OCD, which introduced me to the topic of methylation and its implications in psychiatric disorders/ physical ailments. After reading his book I did the first thing he recommended to determine my methylation status and I had a whole blood histamine test, which resulted in 103ng/ml (not 100% sure on the unit of measure). Anyways according to Walsh, "normal" histamine is between 40-70 ng/ml and anything above and below indicated over and undermethylator as I am sure some of you are aware. My high histamine puts me in the "undermethylation" status, which is what I expected as I fit much more of the high histamine profile than I do the low histamine profile.

    After all of the reading I have done on this subject I have a few questions for those of you who are experienced with this topic.

    1) aside from either Yasko's or 23andMe's SNP tests (I am waiting on 23andMe for my results currently), what other blood tests would be useful in determining my current condition? Does anyone know of a good provider of these tests? Are these tests possible through my primary physician and possible to be covered by insurance?

    Personally I think knowing my homocysteine status would be a good thing, and possibly my b12 status.

    2) Can undermethylated types have either high OR low homocysteine?

    From what I know, some people have CBS upregulations and therefore don't have the homocysteine necesarry to produce enough methionine. Meanwhile some other people have issues with MTHFR, MTRR, and MTR which prohibit enough homocysteine to be converted back into methionine due to bottlenecking or sheer inability to catalyze the conversion. Are these both potential causes of undermethylation? Are there others?


    3) For anyone who has read Dr. Walsh's book, why does he say that b12 is bad for undermethylators (he says b12 and folate are both bad as they can cause methyl trapping). But I have read other sources that indicate methyl trapping is the result of lacking b12 and an overabundance of 5mthf that cannot donate its methyl group to a finally convert homocysteine.

    In Walsh's book he also says that folate (and b12 I think) cause acetylation, which is essentailly the opposite effect that methylation has on DNA, but I googled the subject and could not really find much material regarding folate and acetylation anywhere, so I am not sure about this.

    Any help on these questions would be much appreciated.
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
    Sushi likes this.
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Because the orthomolecular guys misintepreted things really badly back in the day and the newer generation has revised their thinking.
  4. pgoody

    pgoody

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    Thanks. Have either of you had your homocysteine/ b12 levels checked? Was it useful for you?
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    adreno likes this.
  6. pgoody

    pgoody

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    Thanks Sushi!

    Even the european laboratory "get's it wrong" if b12 is good for undermethylators. If you read their methylation panel brochure (http://www.hdri-usa.com/assets/files/role_of_b_vitamins_in_biological_methylation.pdf) it states:

    "Hypomethylated individuals respond to methionine, SAM, magnesium (Mg), calcium (Ca), zinc (Zn), vitamin B6,
    inositol etc. positively but react very poorly to folic acid, vitamin B12, choline, dimethylethylamine (DMEA), etc. Often plasma folate is high in those individuals."

    Again, this sounds like a page right out of Walsh's book.

    And in their discription of overmethylators: "Supplementation of folic acid as well as vitamins B12, B5, and B3 can
    eliminate most of the problems of hypermethylated individuals".

    I guess if they were talking about hydroxy/cyanob12s then this would make sense since these plus folic acid and b3 actually soak up extra methyl groups in order to create 5 mthf and mthlb12, right????

    Perhaps they don't take into consideration supplements such as 5mthf and mthlb12 that come preloaded with the methyl groups, which, I think, would seem to actually be good for undermethylators.
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    That seems like very old information on their website. They are still talking about folic acid, which no one seriously considers for treating methylation imbalances anymore. Also, this whole idea of "undermethylators" and "overmethylators" is basically hogwash. Things are way more complex than that. You can have a broken methylation cycle for various reasons. I would just ignore that information. The test would still be useful, though.
  8. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    pgoody

    The value of http://www.hdri-usa.com/ would seem to be their test panel, not the information their website. The test results come with just the values, not an interpretation.

    That article must be old as it refers to the lab as Vitamin Diagnostics and that name has not been used for some years. Would have been nice if they had dated the article.

    Sushi
  9. pgoody

    pgoody

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    Ok, Thanks Sushi and adreno for the clarification and for bringing me up to date.

    The test you sent me seems incomplete. It doesn't appear to include homocysteine, methionine, and b12 blood levels:

    "Methylation Pathway Parameters Tested:
    Glutathione (oxidized), Glutathione (reduced), S-adenosyl-methionine (RBC), S-adenosyl-homocysteine (RBC), Tetrahydrofolate (THE), 5-methyl-THF, 10-forrnyl-THF, 5-formyl-THF, Folic Acid, Folinic Acid, Folic Acid (RBC), Adenosine"

    Aside from combing through previous posts on methylation, could anyone recommend any articles/ databases that are more up to date in their thinking that discusses the overall methylation system? I have already been reading through mtfhr.net, and Yasko's material.

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