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Underactive thyroid

Discussion in 'Thyroid Dysfunction' started by Jemima37, May 11, 2017.

  1. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    No worries, happy to help :)

    I've done a lot of work with Vit D3.

    Quite against all standard medical advice from my GP and my infuriated endo, I took c.80,000IU a day for about 6 weeks, then I got tested. It came back at 90 nmol/L, and I wanted, based on my research, to be in the 100-200 bracket for optimal immune function and bone health (I had advancing osteoporosis due to oestrogen breast cancer, chemo, anti oestrogen drugs, etc).

    Knowing that the whole scare tactic over Vit D toxicity was in fact, high blood calcium (hypercalcaemia) caused by a) D3 increasing calcium pick up from the gut, and b) a lack of Vit K2, which picks up any excess blood calcium and sends it straight to the bones and teeth, I took 1mg K2 combined MK4 and MK7. The MK4 form is faster acting and is used in Japan to treat osteoporosis, which in the UK, is deemed medically impossible to achieve. MK7 lasts longer in the body, but is slower acting.

    When, at 3 months and 6 months after starting my D3 and K2 regimen, my two DEXA scans came back showing a reversal of the osteoporosis, my GP was enthralled, but my endo practically exploded with fury. We had the most monumental row over it, because he insists, despite the evidence of his own eyes, that K2 "does nothing!" Well, clearly it does.

    Even more annoyingly for my endo, and to the amusement of my GP, every single month they tested everything, D3, calcium, liver and kidney function, immune system, RBC, different minerals, the works, and every single month everything came back normal. They did that for two whole years before my endo was forced to admit that I wasn't killing myself, which he'd promised more than once would happen of I persisted in my madness :p

    Unfortunately, I did eventually succumb to the pressure he brought to bear, and reduced my D3 from my maintenance dose of 10-20,000IU/d, with 150,000IU/d for three days only, if I got an eye infection or something, and consequently got really ill again. Gee, thanks, doc. :cry: :aghhh:

    I've just recently started upping it again from 10,000IU/d to 50.

    They keep lowering the "sufficient" ref range figure. When I started looking at D in 2013, the Sufficiecy figure was c.90, but 100-200nmol/L was considered optimal. I understand the sufficiency figure is now somewhere around 50 or 60, which simply isn't enough, IMHO. They keep lowering the Insufficiency and Deficiency figures, too. I think it used to be 20 to count as deficient, now it's 10, I think. I know I made my Dad get tested, and he tested at 15, which was enough to count as deficient then, and now isn't.

    When you're ill, your body uses up D3 at a vast rate of knots. When you have insufficient D3, you have more muscle pain, more joint pain and stiffness, more depression, more infections, more everything crappy and less immune function.

    Also, the D3 test shows the levels of 25 OH D3, whch is inactive and has to be converted to calcitriol before your cells can use it. If you're iodine deficient, proper conversion isn't possible, so you can test high for 25OH D3, but actually still be deficient at a cellular level if you haven't got enough iodine to do the job.

    Given that you're hypo t, with no antibodies, it's a safe bet that you are iodine deficient. All of us with hypo t (and hypo adrenals) are.
     
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  2. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    IMG_0448.JPG
    Wow yes thank you so much! I almost cried reading your reply.

    These were my recent results ..... this is why he's referred me. I was so worried with iron being so raised. Ferritin is 57 so not over range he said. My liver was slightly over which worried me too. Gp just said repeat in 3 months.
    Wow yes thank you so much! I almost cried reading your reply.

    These were my recent results ..... this is why he's referred me. I was so worried with iron being so raised. Ferritin is 57 so not over range he said. My liver was slightly over which worried me too. Gp just said repeat in 3 months. I've attached a photo of latest results if you wouldn't mind taking a look.

    Thank you for reassuring me. I've been so scared recently why I feel so fatigued, heavy, weak legs, crashes, breathless chest fatigue... I'm exhausted. I also feel I can't stand for long as I feel breathless and faint feeling so have to rest often.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  3. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    Ops not sure what happened there but here is the other blood result
    thabj you.

    I actually have been supplementing d3 since my result and a little before the test. I take 1000 a day.

    Here is the other blood test result I couldn't seem to attach to my other reply. If you wouldn't mind taking a look?

    Thank you. IMG_1255.JPG
     
  4. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Jemima37
    :) Happy to help.

    Honestly, 1k a day won't touch the sides. Look at the amounts I had to take to even start geting into normal range, and my maintenance dose of 10k a day to keep it in range. And remember, you're 99.9% going to be iodine deficient, so your levels will test higher than the calcitriol that your cells need.

    Going to look at your results now, back in a minute, :)
     
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  5. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    Ok, I will look into iodine supplements then?

    Thank you, you're a star!
     
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  6. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Ok. Well, your calcium is nowhere near high end, which backs up my feeling that you need more D3. Are you taking vit K?

    No sodium, potassium, magnesium?

    Livers never work brilliantly with hypo t, but I'm surprised to see your lipids so low - these are usually high in hypothyroidism.

    Yes, agree with GP, keep an eye on liver function.

    No kidney function done?

    Your uric acid looks a bit high end - what's your diet like? And how much water do you drink a day?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  7. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    :D Honestly, just happy to help, but thankyou. It's nice to be appreciated :D

    Yes, do. I've got a number of iodine posts up, but if you Google Lynne Farrow, "The Iodine Crisis", you can find a free pdf book online, ditto Stephanie Buist's book 1 and book 2 (2nd version is slightly more pages than her 1st version), then go to Optimox.com and read some of te iodine research by Drs Abraham, Flechas, and Brownstein.
    Lots of information to get you started.

    Best form of iodine to take, IMHO, is Lugol's, which is a mixture of iodINE and potassium iodIDE. Different tissues need or prefer iodine over iodide (boobs, prostate- yes, I know you haven't got the latter!) and vice versa (thyroid prefers iodide). Other people prefer nascent iodine, which has to be in alcohol for it to be classed as properly nascent, because that involves splitting the diatomic bond, and that can only be done in alcohol, not the distilled water that some manufacturers use. I'm grossly alcohol intolerant, so nascent isn't for me.

    Don't confuse Lugol's Iodine Solution with Tincture of Iodine. Tincture of Iodine is different, and it's toxic if you take it internally, hence the skull and crossbones on every bottle.

    Feel free to PM if you want to.
     
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  8. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    Those are all my recent bloods.

    November 2016 my results were
    Potassium 3.4 (3.5-5.3)
    Serum Creatinine 57umol (46-92)
    GFR 90ML

    Those are all the liver and kindey function tests I had done?

    Diet is ok, pretty balanced. Oats at breakfast with berries, almond milk and honey. Lunch jacket potato with tuna/beans/chickpea curry....Dinner is chicken with veggies and potatoes/sweet potatoes, pasta.....Snacks are bananas, babybel cheese, plain crisps, dark chocoalte for a treat.

    My cholesterol was sky high at 6.9 a year ago before I started thyroxine, it's now down after a good diet and taking the thyroid meds I guess.
     
  9. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Your potasium is low. I think you need to supplement. Low potassium can make you feel absolutely awful, weak, shaky muscles, general weakness and fatigue, weepy, nauseous, headaches, etc. Any of those apply?

    Ah, yes, I forgot you're on T4. That explains that. :)

    GFR fine, kidneys not struggling at all. Creatinine looks fine.

    Diet also looks fine....where are you getting all that uric acid from, I wonder? How much water do you drink a day?
     
  10. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    And potassium HAS to be in balance with sodium. Do you get salt cravings?
     
  11. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    I am not even sure what uric acid is lol! My Gp said it was ok? Isn't it a gout test?

    Yes GP said kidneys are fine.

    Yes since on T4 I have had much better cholesterol, it had been climbing for years slowly.

    My potassium in the past has been around 3.8 so normal but lower end, my GP told me it was fine for me. The day of that blood test where it was 3.4 and sodium was 129 I had 7 cups of camomile tea (yes 7 lol) I was terrified about the blood test as I have a real phobia. My GP was coming to my house to do them and I was in a state so was drinking it to calm me but also urinating like a river all day. My GP said once he had the results that hebal teas and weeing that much would lower electrolytes so it explained my result. 9 days later the sodium was 138 so he wasn't worried. I am due to re test my electrolytes but I have opted to do a 24 hour urine test as I am hating all the bloods and having a phobia and had so many I am trying to go easy on my anxiety. Hopefully it's as accurate.

    I feel tired and weak most days but I was told I'd have muscle pains if I had potassium deficiency, which I don't have. No salt cravings but i have started adding salt to my meals as I never used to.

    I drink about 2 cups of water a day, the rest is about 4 cups of regular tea/decaf green tea.

    Do you think my iron levels look ok? what about the white cells?

    I do take an anti depressant, Mirtazapine 15mg that I am currently weaning off from. I have been on it 4 years for PTSD/anxiety after I was attacked.

    Thank you for helping me it means alot, I have anxiety about my health since all of this so it can be very scary for me to talk about.

    Julie
     
  12. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    I also found these results from 8 weeks ago
    i forgot to add this results from 8 weeks ago. It was the first set that led to my gp asking for a repeat full blood count. IMG_1256.JPG
     
  13. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi Julie,

    Would you rather PM chat?

    GFR (glomerular filtration rate) doesn't get much better than 90!

    It is :) Uric acid from purines in different foods can build up in joint spaces as uric acid crystals, which can be ridiculously painful. It's associated with elderly gents wo eat and drink too much "rich food", but actually, it's in a ton of very normal foods, like meat, veg, all sorts. Do you have any red, hot, or swollen joints? Typically, toes and fingers are the first/ worst affected (think of the wealthy old boy semi-reclined in a chair, glass of port in one hand, cigar in the other, big white bandage on one of his big toes), but it can accumulate anywhere in joints, I think. I haven't taken a close look at uric acid deposits since the mid 1980s when I drew up a low-uric adcid diet plan for my Dad, who had (still has) terrible arthritis. He still has it because the stubborn man refuses to modify his diet in any shape or form.

    I don't think two glasses or so of water a day is anywhere near enough. Tea and coffee are both mildly dehydrating, so if you're only putting away a couple of glasses of water, and the rest is tea and coffee, you stand a good chance of being dehydrated. To check this, look at the back of your hand, and pinch up the skin inbetween your thumb and first finger joint, just below and to one side of the "Vee" where the two join up. Hold that skin up away from the back of your hand for a few seconds, then let it go. If you're hydrated, tge skin pings back immediately, completely flat. If you're dehydrated, it will stay up in a peak for a while before it eventually flattens.

    Yep, high lipids are a standard sign of hypo t, they will lower when you take thyroid meds. That's standard.

    And have you previously felt well on your "normal for you" low end potassium? 3.4 is still lower than 3.8. Most GPs are scared of potassium because of the cardiac event risk with hyperkalaemia, but as long as your sodium is in line with your potassium, it's fine.

    Hmm, low sodium. 138 still isn't great. It needs to be more in the 140-145 range. I winder if your adrenals are throwing off more sodium than they should? That can also have a similar effect to low potassium.

    But yes, 7 cups of chamm will make you pee a lot! And that will certainly flish out electrolytes, so that could easily have caused those low figures. Even chamm tea dehydrates a bit, which is why you peed a lot! Have you tried Valerian herb for your anxiety? - It's something that helps me :) 500mg three times a day really takes the edge off, and I take 1g if I get a spike, like you experienced over your tests.

    If your GP knows how anxious you get, has he offered you any sedatives to help you with blood tests? That's pretty standard, if they understand how terified you get. Would you take Valium or similar?

    I'm
    Not neccessarily, but you'd definitely feel weak, and rubbish. Maybe they're thinking of extreme K deficiency. Do you have pain-free muscles?

    Great that you're adding salt - have a look at my post on the contents of table salt vs natural salt, like Himalayan pink salt. You'll see it mentioned very often in the iodine literature, too. It's an important part of taking iodine, because iodine in quantity shifts other toxic substances like bromide and chlorine and fluoride out of the iodine receptors (they all share the same receptors, and it's one reason why we get iodine-deficient and hypo t in the first place).

    Table salt has only two minerals - sodium and chloride, plus aluminium for stopping it from clumping together in a lump ("flow agent") and other nasties, like bleach to make it look all pure and white. Real salt isn't pure white. Sea salt is greyish. (Although sea-salt, unless it's specially produced in clean, uncontaminated waters, can carry all kinds of oceanic pollutants, so I stick with the pink Himalayan stuff, which also has the full range of 89 minerals in it - it's all listed in my Spectral Analysis Of Himalayan Pink Salt post :)

    Honestly, Julie, even if ALL of that was water, it isn't enough to keep everything hydrated. It's not much over a litre, litre and a half, if each cup is 8oz/ 250ml. You need at least 2 litres of water a day, preferably 2-3, and pref not unfiltered tap water, partly due to the amount of chemicals in it, and esp fluoride if your area is fluoridated. Where in UK are you? My area is considered low fluoride, but it still has 1ppm, which is roughkyb1mg per litre, so we filter everything, and I only drink bottled mineral water that doesn't have fluoride in it (or isn't listed on the label, anyway).

    I think your iron looks on the high side, but not dangeously so. Your whites look like they're working, because most of them have registered a little bit of activity, and your lymphs don't look v high to me, not at all. Your neuts being below range is odd, and I don't understand that, unless one of your meds is causing it. Woukd you mind telling me what meds you're on? I think if everything is monitored, you and your GP can stay on top of anything as and when and IF it comes up :)

    I'll go and have a look at that for you, and see if it could conceivably be suppressing your neuts. What dose were you taking before you started weaning off it? How long have you been taking it? Any side-effects from it?

    How are you feeling with reducing it? Are you doing or using/ taking anything else to help your anxiety? Do you sleep ok, or does anxiety wake you up and/ or keep you awake? Do you wake up at 3 and 4am? Hope you don't mind all the questions! :)

    You're very very welcome :) Always happy to talk on PM if it's easier for you.
     
  14. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Thanks.

    So sodium was low then, too, but lymphocyte were lower then than more recently.....hmmm. When is he checking your whites again? Your CRP (inflammation) is ok, I'm surprised he didn't run ESR too.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  15. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Jemima37

    Wow, side effect city!

    https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/24851

    Any of those apply to you? - Can't see any reference to uric acid retention, but it looks like there can be fluid retention because they mention oedema and "inappropiate" amounts of anti diuretic hormone, which avtively stops you peeing, and is normally produced in the Deep Sleep (stage 3 sleep), so you don't get woken in the night needing the bathroom.

    I'll dig around a bit further.

    Always astonishes me that anti anxiety and anti depression drugs list anxiety and depression in their side efects. Bit like accepting that aspirin will GIVE you a headache! :thumbdown:
     
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  16. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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  17. Jemima37

    Jemima37 Senior Member

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    I have gained 35lbs on the drug, it's given me a puffy face and tummy for sure adn I read that's very common with the fkuid it makes you carry.

    Low BP I have since being on it yes.
    Dry mouth sometimes
    Dizziness
    Fatigue

    GP has written to haemotlogy regarding my neutrophil count, he said he wasn't worried about the lympphocytes to be honest, not sure why So I am waiting to hear from him to see what they said, I guess then he will want to repeat the blood tests.

    I had low Neutrophils in 2012 for a year but they eventually went back up and it was due to a cystic acne outbreak. Which funnily enough I've had the last 2 months again. I get flare ups sometimes. I did ask my GP if it could be the cause again but he didn't know so wrote to the haemotologist.

    Julie
     
  18. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi Julie,

    The fact that it makes you retain fluid should have increased your low sodium, so it will be interesting to see what your tests say when you've lowered your dose a bit.

    Did you have low BP before? Any dizziness on standing? Pins and needles from folding your arms, holding the phone, that sort of thing? - When mine was super-low, before thyroid and adrenal meds, putting my head on the pillow caused pins and needles in my scalp. :confused:

    Stupid GP surgery then said I must be really really fit to have such low blood pressure! In fact, I could barely stand up. They evidently hadn't heard of postural hypotension then, and certainly not POTS. I still have a drop on standing if I've got my adrenal meds wrong.


    I agree. A slight rise in any WBCs really isn't significant. Lower than range neuts are a mystery to me - something I have only come across in the context of neutropenic sepsis from chemo suppressing neutrophils.

    That's interesting. I wonder what the mechanism of action was there? I would have expected cystic acne to elevate neuts, not lower them, as they are primarily concerned with handling bacterial infections, and acne produces bacteria. Did your doc have any idea how cystic acne affected your neuts like that?
     
  19. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Oh pants, it isn't quoting.

    Ok.

    If your Dad has gout, it could be something genetic predisposing you to retaining uric acid, OR it could be that restricting your water intake for fear of flushing away your sodium and potassium isn't helping :)

    I udersrand you doing that, but it will be more beneficial to use salt liberally, to drink when you feel thirsty (that's really important, thirst is there for a reason), and to supplement potassium if necessary. Docs are scared of potassium as previously mentioned. RDAs for Na and K are 2.3g and c.4g a day, and all RDAs tend to be vety conservative, and based on a HEALTHY group of study subjects, which therefore has little application to chronically UNhealthy people, such as those of us with chronic conditions.

    On the salt loading protocol, you can take up to 10g of Himalayan salt or sea salt a day - that isn't 10g of sodium, 10g of salt which includes a large proportion of sodium, along with chloride and all the other minerals too. 1 tsp of Himalayan is, from memory, c.5g of salt (I need to check my own post about this!)

    Raised cortisol - were you very stressed that day? You mentioned that you were phobic about blood tests, does that stress extend to doctors and tests aside from ones with needles?

    I understand your feelings about Valium, etc. It can be a really useful one-off/ occasional treatment to help manage severe anxiety due to a particular event, though.

    Kalms are great. I was quite liberal with them when I hit a really horrible, black patch a year or so ago. I was on Valium too, and guess what, Valium/ diazepam can make anxiety worse if taken regularly, because it works by forcing all of your naturally calming GABA into action, which depletes it, leaving you anxious. Great plan! (Not!)

    Great that you use Himalayan, great that you don't have muscle pain. Still doesn't mean you aren't low in potassium :)

    You have to take a LOT of potassium to throw your sodium/ potassium balance out, like several grams every day.

    If you DO ever take too much, you'd get rapid heartbeat as one of the first indications, and if that happens, you'd take some salt to rebalance. As long as you don't restrict your sodium intake, you won't hit any problems taking for example, 1/8th tsp of pot chloride powder (365mg) up to 3 times a day. There is a nutritional school of thought that says we're all low in potassium, because our old hunter gatherer diet provided way more than the 4g they recommend today. I know I do better on at least 1200mg/d, but that's me, not you :)

    Haemoglobin is the protein that transports iron. Maybe your haemoglobin went up a little bit to support your higher iron levels?

    Poor you. It's crap when you get isolated by illness, and then get scared of everything, and nowhere and nothing feels safe. Unhelpful GPs and others just add to it.

    I understand about the agoraphobia. I used to get so bad that I couldn't even open letters, never mind answer the door or phone, and I couldn't drive literally anywhere. I was too terrified. It sucked.

    But you're absolutely right, once your health is in better shape, which hopefully the iodine will facilitate, all your hormones and neurotransmitters will re-balance, your anxiety will dissipate, and you can start living again, instead of existing and waiting for it all to just stop. I do understand :) :hug:

    I'm originally from the other side of the Severn, but have limited knowledge of North Wales. I know bits of the South, but North is a bit of a mystery to me! Are you anywhere near Snowdonia?
     
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  20. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi there,
    Just thought I'd bring up a possible reason for the low neutrophils, or neutropenia.
    Copper deficiency is one cause for it.

    A serum copper blood test along with ceruloplasmin may indicate it. It's not perfect, but seems to be the best thing going.

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/copper

    Anemia is usually found with copper deficiency, but not always. I don't have anemia, but have had copper def.

    Since copper enzymes regulate iron, it's possible that your iron panel is off due to that.

    High serum iron can be due to a lot of things. I wonder if you had a high iron meal or supplemented or weren't fasting for the iron panel.

    http://www.doctorslounge.com/hematology/labs/iron.htm

    I've also had high hematocrit and hemoglobin , but I have iron overload, my iron panel was diagnostic for it. I've only seen anecdotes of other people with high hct. and hgb. , along with iron overload.

    The doctors would not consider your iron panel to be diagnostic of iron overload, but
    I would keep an eye on it, since you have so much fatigue, etc.

    There are so many causes for elevated cortisol, but I thought I'd bring up a simple one, just in case. Zinc deficiency can elevate cortisol. Even though blood tests aren't perfect, it may be worth a test.
    Zinc is a very calming metal.
     
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