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TSH>1.9=hypothyroid; hypo->PEM; allergies->hypo

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by triffid113, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I wanted to pass on what I recently learned. Just got around to it because I also have a question for whoever can answer.

    I have found that allergic rhinitis, like colds and asthma, destroy the mucous membranes and zinc is used up (75mg minimum) to rebuild them. Zinc is required for making thyroid hormone and I become hypothyroid during allergy season and that causes my adrenal gland to go out so that I get constant repeat low blood sugar attacks (which requires more DHEA/dehydrated adrenal to fix). I read that hypothyroid is a known cause of PEM.

    The problem with that is that there is no scientific basis for the reference range for TSH and in fact there are many studies which show adverse health conditions can be corrected with thyroid hormone when TSH > 1.9 (implying TSH > 1.9 is a disease state). For instance, high cholesterol can be normalized with thyroid hormone. See these articles for example: http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/blood_testing_01.htm?source=search&key=TSH reference range

    So the point is that doctors are very poor at diagnosing hypothyroid and therefore I think those of you with PEM should look at your thyroid readings and self-diagnose (I am serious).

    Also idk if taking thyroid hormone is a good idea (ok, maybe in a serious case) but if one's TSH is high due to a deficiency of tyrosine, zinc, selenium, mB12, or iodine (and possibly copper), then taking thyroid hormone does not correct that deficiency.

    My father could not pass the eye test to renew his license. He had a frequently dripping nose, gripping heartburn after every meal, and frequent diarrhea. His TSH had climbed from 2.3 (bad) to 2.6 (worse). I put him on 18mg zinc (JUST 18mg!) because my Dad is unwilling to get the kind of testing I would want to be confident of anything and he takes a bazillion drugs for a bazillion medical problems, so one can not be aggressive here. It took maybe about a month but his nose stopped dripping, the heartburn became a memory, the frequeny diarrhea stopped, and now after 2 months he passed the eye test and can drive again. In the middle, after he had improved, he ran out of one of the zinc supplements and the heartburn started back and banished immediately we replaced his supplement. idk how his TSH looks because he won't get a single test the doc didn't order...a very frustrating patient. I don't even know if his digestion is optimal...just that the worst of it has gone away. We can only do what we can only do when people do not participate in their own health. imho he still has PEM. I do not anymore. He is taking 1/3 of a Thorne multi (so 5mg zinc there), a 5mg zinc lozenge, and 8mg of this form of zinc said to be specifically for stomach problems (dunno if the form matters):

    So allergies are a very BIG reason for my variability. Not only do they cause hypothyroid, adrenal issues, and PEM, they sent my methylation out of control (life extension doctors said inflammation will do that). I got my homocysteine perfect under Freddd's protocol and then it went winging off again (was 10 during allergy season - should be 6.3). I have not retaken it, but I know it is still not normal. I think the zinc deficiency impaired my digestion...I had proven I did not need the Jarrow methylcobalamin sublingual (my homocysteine was 6.3 w/o it) but apparently I do during allergy season as zinc is required to make stomach acid. I also read that hypothyroid prevents conversion of ubiquinon to ubiquinol, something I am unable to do. But I did not know I had thyroid issues in the past and I can't afford to retest. I also found Diagose-Me.com says allergic rhinitis uses up Vitamin A, which may be why my actinis keratinitis is worse after 50. At age 50 I stopped taking supplemental zinc due to a test which showed I was borderline low copper. At age 50 I developed new and debilitating allergies (made me nonfunctional) that I had never had before. This year I found zinc cancelled the new allergies (such as allergies in May, which is tree seed season, but had never bothered me before). So even though I need copper, I also need zinc, and the amount is very different from allergy season to not-allergy season. I was originally taking zinc because there were clear signs I was deficient, including the inability to keep going during a cold, which zinc would take care of. It turns out I was half right and shoudl have kept up the zinc.

    I also wonder if hormones help you absorb not only copper but zinc. Else why would it be that zinc is known to slow/prevent macular degeneration? Americans are such meat eaters...is zinc deficiency really so common as macular degeration? I just wonder because the protein involved in zinc absorption is the same as the one involved in copper absorption: metallothionein, and it is known that hormones help you absorb copper (so you can become deficient after your hormones wane like I did) and the mechanism could be via metallothionein, which would then also impact zinc. Whatever the case, I found I need to supplement some amount of zinc - maybe 15mg - maybe a bit more - even not during allergy season.

    My case is not so cut and dried though...my dopamine metabolism (HVA) indicates possible neuroblastoma (could be because of my genetic defects or that I have a tumor)...don't know if there is a tie, but anything that revs up my thyroid (iodine OR zinc) causes unilateral brain swelling, swelling of the optic nerve (and I even find less light comes in through the eye on that side of my head). I cannot, however, do w/o zinc (or for that matter w/o iodine). Apparently my thyroid cannot turn off. I am now taking 4mg copper plus 1.5 mg in my multi. I know it is directionally right for me but w/o a good testing method and knowing it is a poison, I am a wimp. But you can't take 75mg zinc to fix your sinuses and not take a good chunk of copper. So far the only result (and it is significant) is I now have normal wound healing (nothing was healing before taking copper in this dose and sufficient zinc to rebuild my mucous membranes). The theory is that copper helps your thyroid turn off.

    If you have PEM consider your thyroid. Good luck. Lotsa stuff can throw us off...so what if we know the basic biochemistry and supply those things...conditions may cause up to use one or more of those nutrients at a furious rate and STILL throw us off. Hopefully getting a handle on some of the things that can throw us off will help us to stay in control.

    Triff
     
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    The question...not related. I have lost and had stolen memory sticks and so I used to have this info somewhere and have lost it. Does anyone know how Vitamin D impacts the methyl cycle? Wasn't there a reference to that somewhere in here? Thx.

    If anyone knows and would not mind could you email me at rydra _ wong at hotmail . com? Thx.
     
  3. newradost

    newradost

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    Good observation. Cooper is very important. My family comes from region high on cooper. But I was born and live elsewhere. So my Dao enzyme is deficienta and cooper also. My son has severe digestive issues and his cooper is below the norm. Zink is at the line. We both can not take Zink because of immediate pain. I'm afraid to start supplement with cooper...we also have leaky gut and allergies.
     
  4. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks for your time and effort in your write up triffid, it has particular relevance for me. Hypothyroidism (too late) diagnosis and currently on 100mcg Thyroxine. I recognise all the symptoms you speak of and all round general supplementing myself to aid. Looks like the thyroid gland is a much complicated than it appears - certainly no quick fix for me when put onto Thyroxine (though an essential part of the puzzle).
     
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Um, I would like to caution that I did not actually list hypothyroid or hyper thyroid symptoms. There is a very long list of symptoms for these and I have experienced both. You could find them on a good thyroid website. I was only listing bizarre things you would not find on such a list...allergies! And also a reason for thyroid to go back and forth between hypo and normal (does Hashi really exist or is it caused by allergies?). I do know with Hashi there are thyroid antibodies which I have not got due possibly that I have always been careful to take selenium (the thyroid generates a lot f free radicals as it works and is a big consumer of antioxidants, esp. selenium).

    I want to correct something...I realised the reason I got my unilateral brain swelling back (and it is gone again) is because for awhile I was taking a full multi which has iodine and I already know for some reason iodine causes me that unilateral headache. In the past I was only taking 1/3 to 1/2 of that multi, but I have come to admire it more and more because it contains cal/mag ina 1:1 ratio and both in CITRATE FORMS (as well as all active B's). So I started taking a full 6 pills of it and I ran into the iodine problem again. I did get a bottle of the same multi w/o iodine and w/o copper (I had no choice on the copper) and I just take a 4mg copper for the copper. It is a Thorn multi.

    I am hoping that when I get enough copper in my system that my thyroid can shut down that I will be able to take iodine again. But so far that is not the case. So forget what I said about zinc causing me headaches...it's the iodine.

    Here is the study to look at (in this paper find the study by Strauss) to get an idea that copper is undersupplemented in menopausal women: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=/PNS/PNS61_02/S0029665102000666a.pdf&code=981e37554e94fc3ea8274c4fdfabca59

    Trif
     
  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I think (well, in my observation) leaky gut and food allergies (but to some extent also airway allergies) are caused
    by a zinc shortage, not copper. Either a zinc shortage or a copper shortage or both can cause slow wound healing.
    A copper shortage causes thin skin and crepey skin. For men it would be seen as the tendency to cut oneself while shaving. copper doesn't actually make skin like zinc does...copper just allows skin to cross-link so it can be thicker...like staggering bricks when building a house rather than placing them one atop another which is not strong.

    But you have to take your own counsel about zinc and copper because if you do not get it right there are serious consequences and I am not willing to take responsibilityf or that. I use www.tracelements.com hair analysis to determine copper status. I believe strongly in labs and only offer suggestions for others to explore themselves. W/o labs I would never even prescribe for myself.

    trif
     
  7. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Triff,

    Is there any evidence that being hypothyroid causing a type of PEM like PWME get though? I mean real proper evidence (not just a claim on an internet website). I've known people with "just" low thryroid and they don't have anywhere near the PEM that a PWME would have. Thryroid cancer runs in my family so I have an interest in this area.

    In the early ME days the thyroid was looked at in patients and supplementation was given and there were no obvious changes to the ME symptoms and the PEM. It was pretty well looked at decades ago.

    My own early ME doctor gave thyroid meds to be patients and also things like zinc routinely in the 80's. We were thoroughly supplemented.

    They made little or no difference to us. He did quite a bit of work in this area. In the UK we have another old doctor who has also worked a lot with ME patients and the thyroid. There was the research showing small thryroid glands . Some help and some improvements but no miracle cures or even modest gains for the majority I know of.

    It may be that individual patients will have individual thryroid problems and I'be not arguing that there may not be individual specific difficiences but will correcting this make any difference to a clear cut ME patient? I've not seen that in the past 25 odd years I've had this disease sadly.

    Dr Cheney reported that in some of his patients copper was something that something that they couldn't tolerate. Just wanted to mention that in case others try supplementing and find it's a problem. There are no easy answers here. What helps one patient can harm another.

    As we know there are a lot of different people with a CFS diagnosis and thyroid seems to be an area that people need to look out and rule out.

    Wishing you all the very best and I hope that the copper etc helps you recover. It's such an individual journey and i'm glad that you are finding things to help you.
     
  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I have never done such a search...such things take minimum of 3 hours. I read a lot and I don't always keep copies of everything I read because it is onerous. All I was saying above is that since I read this (and also experience this during allergy season when I cannot lift one single finger to do one single thing and get lactic acid after every little thing I must force myself to do (gotta feed the cats - there are certain inescapable things), if I experienced PEM, I would take a look at my TSH and since it is not normal if it is 2.0 or above, I would take steps to lower it and see if it helps. (So I am saying TSH 2.0 or greater is hypothyroid and if you fix that problem it may take care of more than you think...yet unless it is over 5.0 or something you would never be diagnosed hypothyroid).

    So when you say you were supplemented for thyroid etc, the question is what was your TSH brought to? If your doctor thought 5.0, or even 3.0 was good enough, it was not. So you may be looking at this as a big deal to test because you involve doctors, but I do not so I look at it as something simple to test. I make sure I am getting the right amounts of zinc, selenium, iodine, mB12, tyrosine, copper, and possibly manganese (I recently read that is involved but am not sure yet). I can turn up or down my thyroid with these things and have done so. I get my blood tests through www.lef.org and a local Labcorp blood draw. So I guess whether this info is easy or not to pursue depends on your situation. Here's a reference on TSH that it shoukd be below 2.0: http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/blood_testing_01.htm?source=search&key=TSH reference range

    But since you asked about PEM vs CFS vs hypothyroid, I did a QUICK search and found this interesting article: http://www.masscfids.org/resource-library/13/302

    I have not reda it yet but it says PEM in CFS can be from both hypothyoid and cytokines. If that is true there are many cytokine reducing strategies. In fact if you can find out which cytokines are elevated, you can do internet searches for things that lower them. There are many. I take DHEA as it significantly impedes TNF-alpha cytokine, for instance. As a severe allergy sufferer, I can and do find strategies to lower cytokines.

    Triff
     
  9. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    thyroid function is a pretty new field for me, thanks for posting this Triff. My doc suggested thyroid meds, as my T4 was always borderline low...and as you know, in the UK, the range is very wide. Last year I had a startling transient improvement with supplementing with thyrosine and maca, and afterwards found out maca is high in iodine. I stopped them when I began treatment for protomyzoa, as I didnt want to confound effects, and the improvement receded.
    That copper/zinc thing is a toughie, esp for me with HPU, everytime I go near that Klinghart supplement for it, The Core, with zinc, manganese etc. I get ill to the point where I stop.
    I have now been on T3 for two weeks, and certainly have more energy, but it may of course be transient or it may have undesirable effects that outweigh its benefits. I do think tho' that its a an area worth pursuing. And if you are on thyroxine and dont get the desired effects, have a look at the thyroid patient advocacy website, its filled with hypo peeps who had to try natural dessicated thyroid or a T4/T3 mix to feel better.
     
  10. newradost

    newradost

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    10x Triff! Do your allergies come with digestion pain and problems or a expressed with airways symptoms?
     
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I have digestive issues on and off and I have many allergies that come and go. I have noticed that my father (who has no allergies) has digestive issues (he says heartburn) when he is not taking enough zinc. He was taking only 5mg zinc and his doctor had him on a low protein diet for stage 4 kidney failure so he was not getting enough zinc in his diet. He started getting gripping heartburn after every meal as well as runny stool and a drippy nose...all taken care of with 18mg zinc over 2 months time. That is a very conservative dose and I think a higher dose would have more immediate effects (I can feel 75mg of zinc work immediately on my allergies).

    But generally, no, I do not get stomach pain. But here's the thing...I have had wretched health all my life and no help from the medical profession so I have been self medicating forever. I do not lump symptoms into a diagnosis. I treat symptoms individually and almost unconsciously as I have been doing it forever. So, for instance, I have had the low potassium electrolyte issue forever and whenever I get it I supplement and have always done so. I was not aware that anything specific caused it. I never had the hospital emergency visits some people here have had and could not have passed that warning on to others until I read it here, yet I had been treating it all along. I just thought I was a person who loses electrolytes frequently. (I had read about this problem long ago...as I have low blood sugar and that causes big time elctrolyte loss - 1.8 g potassium for instance!)

    So yes it causes gut pain. In me? No, I wouldn't notice that as I would treat it before any such symptom...for instance I take olive leaf extract to kill gut pathogens...so no yeast infections or other stuff from low sto,mach acid, I understand what a craving for sour is and I take sour (acid stuff for my stomach) as needed, etc. However if your hands were tied and you did no palliative things, welll - that's my Dad, and it was big time stomach pain.

    Gotta go
    Triff
     
  12. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Oh, p.s., I found when I got run down (working O.T. and eating fom junk food machines) not during allergy season that I can get low zinc (prolly from inadequate diet) and it causes leaky gut (the pores in the skin of my intestines become larger since it takes zinc to make skin and there is less of it so it makes swiss cheesey skin) and I absorb food before it is fully digested. This causes a wheat allergy for me (verified) and the symptoms are depression and joint pain. So not all allergies are airway allergies and yet zinc is involved.
     
  13. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Thanks! Now I know why I cannot tolerate maca! I am very sensitive to iodine - it drives me hyperthyroid.

    I do not supplement thyroid hormone as thyroid issues for me are not due to damage to the thyoid but due to
    nutrient shortage/imbalance and bandaiding past that will not correct the many other issues shortage in nutrients such as zinc cause. I do take 1g tyrosine /day...it causes euphoria for me as it helps make not only thyroxin but also dopamine, except allergy season killed that and I have not got it back yet. I had a bit of it back like one day but can't make it consistent yet so I am experimenting with different doses of zinc.

    Triff
     

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