Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Trying to figure out what caused itching

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by jwat87, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I've been experiencing itching on my body and red ears, ringing in ears like too much histamine. I have taken methylfolate for a few weeks (400-800mcg), methylb12 (500mcg-1mg), with no side effects. I have also taken NAC alone before many times with no side effects. I started taking all 3 and experienced itching, so stopped everything for a few days. When itching subsided I took 400mcg methylfolate and 600mg NAC, itching returned. Is it the combination, or has this created a methyl trap in which I actually need more b12? I feel great mentally.
    Would I be fine if I took them several hours apart? NAC is recommended several times on the nutrahacker report. I have the CBS AG:1/2 mutation, but I've never noticed anything bad from taking MSM or NAC by itself.
     
  2. place

    place Be Strong!

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    When doing the methyl protocol, I lacked copper and got really itchy. suplimented and it went away. Also, as a side note; corn makes me itchy = (
     
  3. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    What else is in your supplements besides the active ingredients? Which ONE supplement causes the symptoms to return? You need to be a detective...unless you think this could be an allergic reaction, in which case it's better to stop all of them and seek professional advice.
     
  4. jwat87

    jwat87

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    How did you determine you were deficient? How much copper do you take and what form? I got some copper gluconate 2mg and took a couple last week, I have not been taking them daily though because I'm afraid of getting too much copper.

    It's definitely the methylfolate, I took another one today and itching returned, despite taking methylb12 first and quitting all supplements for a week. I didn't get the reaction from just taking b12. There aren't any additives that would cause this.
    As for getting profession advice, who would I even go to? Are there doctors who specialize in this sort of thing, what are they called? My family doctor would not know anything about any of this stuff.
     
  5. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    OK...what brand were you taking? Have you ever taken any other brands? How do you know there aren't additives you're reacting to? You could be reacting to the binder, filler, or something else, couldn't you?

    The doctors who specialize in itching reactions are allergists. They usually counsel avoidance. Big help, I know. Sorry.
     
  6. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I have doctor's best quatrafolic, and swanson's active b complex (400mcg quatrafolic, no folic acid). I got the same reaction from taking both (separately). I've never had this reaction from taking anything else before, and I have taken a lot of supplements in the past with the same filler (plant fiber, magnesium sterate), pretty much every vitamin has the same additives. I was taking methyfolate with no problems for a few weeks, so I am puzzled as to why this is happening now. Too much inactive folate in my system or something?
     
  7. jwat87

    jwat87

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    Can copper cause ringing in ears? The tinnitus was starting to go down until I took another copper this morning and now it's worse.
     
  8. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    It looks like Doctor's Best has
    • Modified cellulose (vegetarian capsule),
    • cellulose
    • Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid)
    • (6S)-5-MethylTetraHydroFolate (MTHF) (elemental, as 800 mcg (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid, glucosamine salt (vegetarian source))
    Have you ever taken glucosamine?

    It appears that there are several Swanson Active B formulas.

    Allergies develop over time. There may not be a build up of anything.
     
  9. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I have taken glucosamine in supplement form years ago with no problems. But if it is a newly developed allergy I wouldn't know if I'm allergic to it.
     
  10. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I think I figured it out...

    "You probably have elevated histamine when you go over a threshold of folic acid cycle throughput, e.g. the same might happen with higher doses of mb12 or p5p, if you care to test this theory. According to Walsh, this reflects a lack of ability to produce SAM-e and the treatment is to cut back on methylfolate/mb12/etc and the main thing is to use SAM-e or methionine. Specifically, his claim is that taking folic acid factors interacts with DNA in the nucleus but for whatever reason does not increase methyl-doner (SAM-e) throughput where its actually needed in the cell (cytoplasm? He is not clear on this).

    In any case, i have developed histamine intolerance and it is made worse by anything that increases the folic acid cycle and many other supplements that I am already deficient in (5mthf, mb12, p5p, Fe, Cu, Mn, D3, fish oil, lecithin, almost all foods with some notable exceptions). However since starting methionine a week ago, I'm actually seeing some changes for the better. I'll know in a few weeks because its still too early for me to be definite, but I am seeing evidence of more SAM-e production with minor improvement in histamine levels. I'm quite relieved that methionine hasn't spiked my histamine so that in itself is significant.

    Walsh has written somewhere that he sees improvement taking 6 months in those with excessive histamine and are folate intolerant but at doses of 2-3g/day of methionine. I've been taking 1g/day for a week. Walsh calls them undermethylators, i.e. low SAM-e throughput, which is distinct from what lynch/yasko/etc call undermethylators because they assume that taking mb12/methylfolate automatically increases SAM-e production accordingly. This is simply not the case for the few who have histamine issues from mb12/methylfolate and feel improvement from increased or exogenous SAM-e. It probably explains why people who become more histamine intolerant with mthf/mb12 on those forums (e.g. pheonix rising, mthfr, ch3nutrogenomics, chris kessler) never get a useful response."
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This could be salicylate intolerance-high ammonia-high uric acid. Supplementation with magnesium oxide helped me with that.
     
  12. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I take magnesium citrate. It was a reaction to methylfolate though, I wasn't taking a bcomplex, so that and sam-e fixed the problem.
     
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  13. Changexpert

    Changexpert Senior Member

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    Wow great response. I also have high histamine intolerance from continual consumption of fermented foods, mb12, and folate (not active B9). Also, high consumption of probiotics gave me negative reactions due to increase in lactic acid -> more histamine. I have never tried methionine, and this may be the missing piece I was looking for.

    How are you feeling these days? Also, why can't you just supplement directly with SAM-e? I would appreciate your response. Thanks.
     
  14. jwat87

    jwat87

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    SAM-E helped, not sure what the difference is. The biggest thing was not taking a b complex. When this happened I was only taking methylb12 and methylfolate. I now take swanson's activated b complex, a little extra b12 and methylfolate. I don't take very much, like one of each per week.
     
  15. Changexpert

    Changexpert Senior Member

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    It's very cool that SAM-e and methionine can help with this condition. I do have a few question for you though.

    Based on methylation cycle diagram, methionine helps to create SAM-e and SAM-e helps to create creatine and homocysteine. One thing I am very confused about is that methionine is also a sulfur group. Methionine gets converted to cysteine, and vice versa is also true. Bear in mind that both cysteine and methionine are sulfur groups! I thought histamine intolerance happens because of intolerance to sulfur, either because of CBS, SUOX, or both mutations. I don't know if cysteine contributes to sulfite/sulfate concentration or not, but when I search sulfur group amino acid, cysteine and methionine are the first ones on the list. Based on this information, I would assume that supplementing with methionine puts more sulfur load on your system, which exacerbates trans-sulfuration pathway, which in turn worsens histamine intolerance. Do you know anything about this? Maybe histamine intolerance and sulfur intolerance are not related and should be discussed separately, which would explain why methionine helps with low SAM-e throughput.

    Personally, I am sensitive to sulfur supplements (p5p, B6, MSM, taurine), mb12 (methyl group), and high histamine (fermented food, lactic acid production). I thought all three conditions were intertwined, but I have not find a solid evidence on these linkages yet.
     
  16. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I really don't know. It you have sulfur intolerance it might be counter productive. I think the only real way to know if try a bunch of different supplement and listen to your body.
     
  17. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    I believe I noticed that. Now I never take it without a large meal.
     
  18. jwat87

    jwat87

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    I will never take copper again, I didn't even take that much and it started causing depression and brain fog. It wasn't until I start taking zinc again that the ringing went away.
     
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi @jwat87,

    I'm curious where you found this quote? I've never heard of the "folic acid cycle". And where are the people who became more histamine intolerant while taking methylfolate and mb12 on the various forums?

    I ask for two reasons: I've developed high histamine levels over the last 9 months or so, but wasn't taking folate or MB-12 for most of those. I just restarted about 3 months ago, but like you, am taking other things as well that could be affecting the histamine levels (not to mention eating high histamine foods).

    William Walsh has been discussed many times on these forums -- his theory of 'undermethylators' and 'overmethylators' has been dismissed by most, and although he's changed his hypotheses and theories since a lot of that information was published, there is still a lot out there which doesn't make sense at all.

    For example: those who are undermethylated (and thus high in histamine) supposedly "thrive on l-methionine, calcium, magnesium, B-6, Zinc, and Vitamin C."

    Then he says those who are overmethylated need "folic acid, B-12, niacin (or niacinamide), B-6, Zinc, Manganese, DMAE, and Vitamins, C and E. In severe cases, up to 5,000 mcg/day of FA may be needed."

    So he recommends giving folic acid(!), B12 to people whose methylation cycle is already on overdrive? Niacin/niacinamide makes sense -- it's a methyl "sponge", but the rest?

    And I would think if one is undermethylated -- they would need more methyl groups, yet the only one he suggests is methionine.

    Doesn't make any sense to me. Does it make sense to anyone else?
     
  20. jwat87

    jwat87

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    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/75948-allergic-reaction-to-methyfolate/
     

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