Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Truth about Adrenal Fatigue

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by heapsreal, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,764
    Likes:
    7,841
    australia (brisbane)
    I only use it at night to help sleep not muscle pain. Do u do hormones like pregenolone etc could help raise cortisol during the day which can help inflammation and PS at night to lower cortisol and help sleep. Thats sort of what im doing.

    cheers!!
     
    Paralee likes this.
  2. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

    Messages:
    508
    Likes:
    28
    I take some Preg and Dhea, but not much because I get acne and thick facial hair.
     
  3. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,276
    Likes:
    5,977
    Midwest USA
    You might consider DPA - D-phenylalanine. It helps to potentiate endorphins which can help a LOT with pain relief. I take 3-4 500 mg capsules a day when my old injuries are acting up.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  4. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

    Messages:
    508
    Likes:
    28
    Thanks but DlPA did nothing for me. Never tried DPA.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,764
    Likes:
    7,841
    australia (brisbane)
    Bumping this post up due to discussion on cortisol and cortisol resistance.

    As the original article suggest, the para ventricular nucleus (PVN) seems to play a function in cortisol sensitivity. Phosphatidyleserine is said to help improve this cortisol sensitivity which seems to help those with high cortisol and those with high night time cortisol and having problems with sleep. Phosphatidyleserine does seem abit hit and miss with some as it can lower cortisol abit too much for some?
     
    Sushi likes this.
  6. Tired of being sick

    Tired of being sick Senior Member

    Messages:
    557
    Likes:
    402
    Western PA USA
    Book marked for a later read..

    Thanks for posting @heapsreal
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes:
    644
    I've read this article multiple times over the last 6 months and I've also seen other doctors who talk about the PVN.

    The PVN doesn't just get confused though, it seems to get caught in a negative feedback loop or inhibited by excess cytokines. In my opinion something is causing this to happen, and it's not the PVN's fault. I think the root cause is infection or inflamation, or blood sugar issues.

    The PVN's major affect on increasing or lowering cortisol could cause hypothyroidism. Lower cortisol, and there's not enough cortisol for the t3 to enter the cell. If the cortisols too high it could cause high conversion to rt3 or thyroid resistance.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,764
    Likes:
    7,841
    australia (brisbane)

    I think your right. With ME we mostly think of infections and immune system and forget that ME is also about inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.

    Either the initial infection or ongoing infections which cause all the inflammation cause damage to the hypothalamus which gives us many of our neurological symptoms such as insomnia and many parasympathetic abnormalities causing symptoms like pots/oi etc.

    I also wonder with research mentioning those post and pre 3 years with cfsme that those post 3 yrs may have more permanent damage and those less than 3 yrs have more reversible issues? ?

    It seems that many of our hormones and neurotransmitters need to be controlled manual with meds etc. Everything seems to interact with each other also.

    Can get a headache trying to understand it all? ?
     
  9. adreno

    adreno Homo neanderthalensis

    Messages:
    4,542
    Likes:
    8,243
    The North
    Whether ME/CFS is of infectious or autoimmune origin, the HPA is ultimately under the control of the immune system.

    It is of course also possible that direct damage to the hypothalamus causes these problems.
     
  10. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,668
    Likes:
    2,383
    Ashland, Oregon
    I just ran across a 7 1/2 min. video entitled, "The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue (It's Not What You Think) which I thought was quite good. He gives a pretty good and succinct description of some of the variables associated with "adrenal fatigue".

    In it he states the fatigue that many chalk up to adrenal fatigue is actually most often caused by an HPA dysfunction. He also describes that in addition to the immune system affecting the HPA, brain neurotransmitter levels and hormone levels also play critical roles in how it functions.
     
    picante and heapsreal like this.
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,764
    Likes:
    7,841
    australia (brisbane)
    'Adrenal fatigue ' is really the effect of something going wrong not necessarily the cause.
     
    drob31 and GracieJ like this.
  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes:
    644
    I agree, and that's the huge difference between the Dr. Lam school of thought and the more complex view.
     
  13. adreno

    adreno Homo neanderthalensis

    Messages:
    4,542
    Likes:
    8,243
    The North
    [​IMG]
     
  14. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    758
    Likes:
    862
    Helena, MT USA
    Time to revive this thread again, because it's so good. I haven't posted as much in the last year, due to the ill effects of crashing from the state of siege I described last Feb. I have yet to pop out of the vortex that swallowed me. My ND was worse than unhelpful, and finally in November I went to see an acupuncturist who ordered this saliva test for cortisol/DHEA. Note the ghastly ratio.
    Picante Adrenal Stress Profile from BioHealth 2016 copy.jpg
     
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    8,764
    Likes:
    7,841
    australia (brisbane)

    Whats funny is mainstream medicine say adrenal fatigue is a list of symptoms and isnt real. Sounds abit like depression, they cant test serotonin levels and say you have depression. But drs treating adrenal fatigue do find abnormalities in cortisol and dhea testing so it can be tested. The only hiccup is that is it the adrenal glands themselves or the signals from the brain to the adrenal glands or combo of.

    It seems it can be a single condition or can go along with another condition like cfsme.
     
    Paralee likes this.
  16. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,160
    Likes:
    644
    That's terrible. Have you tried anything like pregnenelone or even cortef, also dhea?
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    758
    Likes:
    862
    Helena, MT USA
    In this video Wayne linked, he talks about 3 categories of inputs to the hypothalamus: hormones, neurotransmitters, and cytokines.
    Now let me add this: WHAT IF the cytokines are primarily in the meninges, spinal cord, and/or brain? This is the hypothesis I arrived at in the last year: My post-exertional neuro-exhaustion is a cytokine storm in my CNS: it has always manifested as excruciating neck spasms/headaches, and when I described this to the acupuncturist, she thought that had the potential to seriously mess with my HPA axis.
     
  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    758
    Likes:
    862
    Helena, MT USA
    Before I even had time to do the test posted above, the Acu put me on something to help reduce the cytokine load: homeopathics by GUNA. One is called BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor), the other is Interleukin-10, which is an anti-inflammatory cytokine that helps to control the inflammatory ones.

    I was actually floored when she told me I could take cytokines. Then I was floored again when they started to reduce my neck pain. I was off them temporarily while I waited for an order from the UK (with current exchange rates, it was much cheaper than buying them in the US). The pain got worse again.

    Then we got the OAT results, indicating low neurotransmitters (serotonin & dopamine). Then we got the cortisol/DHEA test back.

    So yes, she has put me on DHEA (which I was already taking) and pregnenolone. It's very hard to get the balance to work. The DHEA makes me impossibly groggy during the day, and it blocks my cortisol too much at night. Mostly I've focused on slowly increasing the pregnenolone, and that helps. I overdid it last night, though, and finally the DHEA became useful as a counter-balance this morning.

    She's also got me taking some pretty potent licorice root (Biomatrix). It's so concentrated, it's gooey, LOL.

    This is the first progress I've seen since my crash last year.
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  19. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

    Messages:
    454
    Likes:
    406
    USA
    I don't know if I'm right but my cortisol was just barely high when I had the Cipro reaction. In all fairness I will say that my sex hormones and thyroid were in the gutter....well, I was getting the thyroid better.

    Is it possible a drug reaction can lower morning cortisol from 24 to 4.6? I just had a stim test and it came back "normal" so I may be stuck with a very sedentary rest of my life if I don't take the reins.

    I had just had parathyroid surgery a few months before and the levels after the surgery were a lot better before the Cipro, too, perfect in fact. After that I'm borderline hypocalcemic.
     
    picante likes this.
  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    758
    Likes:
    862
    Helena, MT USA
    When was this reaction to Cipro? Have you had other problems from it? Have you done any reading on peopled who've been "floxxed"? It's a slang term for people who've had neurological impairments from any of the fluoroquinolone antibiotics. You may find other patients whose HPA signalling has been addled by one of these drugs, since fluorine is neurotoxic.

    Last I heard, a bunch of patients attended a hearing on the side effects of these drugs, and testified about permanent debilitating neurological conditions they had acquired. That was Nov. 2015, and the FDA has added more black box warnings to the whole class of fluoroquinolones.
     
    Paralee likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page