• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Tregs may also be low in subsets

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
http://selfhacked.com/2014/11/11/treg/

Tregs may be low if your cfs/me/pots is an autoimmune subgroup. If you are developing mast cell issues it is another huge indicator.

Last month an article came out that showed how activating and upping tregs in the mast cell could turn off the mast cell allergy in progress. That's huge news. They claimed it could be a cure for all allergies.

Not everyone should try increasing tregs. If you have too many it can also have a negative effect, and some people with cfs me have found it makes them feel worse. There is a test to see if yours are high or low before you attempt anything. But.... for those of us that have allergies and autoimmune problems it's worth a shot.

The above article has ways of increasing tregs. Be careful which ones you do as you may respond bad to some of the ways. I think two good ways are:

1. Ampk: It also works on restoring blood glucose levels. (Many of us have insulin resistance ) ALSO NEW MITOCHONDRIA production! That's huge!

2. The RIGHT probiotic can also increase TREGS.

Has anyone tried AMPK? I haven't heard much about it....

Oh here's the link to tregs possibly curing allergies:
http://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2015-09-allergies.html
 
Last edited:

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
AMPK is a supplement that I need to research more. It got me interested because if you can make more tregs it can help keep mast cells at bay. That 2nd link at the end explains how tregs do that. You may want to show that article to your doctor! Sorry I can't tell you more about AMPK. Maybe someone else on here can? If you find out let me know. I plan to order some soon.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMP-activated_protein_kinase

Taking AMPK is more likely to be placebo rather than a useful treatment. Its a complex and easily damaged protein that will have almost no effect unless it can make it, intact, to where its needed. You could not just swallow it, and even intravenous infusion may not be any good. Any regular oral supplement, even with a carrier strategy, is most likely a scam. Show me the research!

Trying to influence AMPK by affecting associated chemistry might be effective, I just don't know if anyone has done it, its not something I have yet to investigate closely.

Finding the cause of low AMPK activity is more likely to be effective in the long term because it may tell us what needs fixing.
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
There is a test to see if yours are high or low
I was trying to find this test at Labcorp...is it just CD3+CD25? The only panel I can find is called a Tcell activation panel but not sure that is the same thing he referenced on selfhacked?

Also trying to figure out why he says that the Swanson probiotic is the *only* one that increases Tregs. The linked article didn't seem to help unless I just missed it which is entirely possible.
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMP-activated_protein_kinase

Taking AMPK is more likely to be placebo rather than a useful treatment. Its a complex and easily damaged protein that will have almost no effect unless it can make it, intact, to where its needed. You could not just swallow it, and even intravenous infusion may not be any good. Any regular oral supplement, even with a carrier strategy, is most likely a scam. Show me the research!

Trying to influence AMPK by affecting associated chemistry might be effective, I just don't know if anyone has done it, its not something I have yet to investigate closely.

Finding the cause of low AMPK activity is more likely to be effective in the long term because it may tell us what needs fixing.
Yes, thank you Alex, I hadn't thought of that. Makes sense!
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
I was trying to find this test at Labcorp...is it just CD3+CD25? The only panel I can find is called a Tcell activation panel but not sure that is the same thing he referenced on selfhacked?

Also trying to figure out why he says that the Swanson probiotic is the *only* one that increases Tregs. The linked article didn't seem to help unless I just missed it which is entirely possible.
I was planning to ask my doctor about getting the test, so I'm not help there. As with the probiotic I'm sure others would work that link was broken. I was wondering if the clostridium butyricum (CB) would work??
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
@alex3619 what did you think about the article saying tregs could be possible cure for allergies? I (and others on here) have mast cell activation disorder and allergies.
 
Last edited:

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
Interesting bits from the article @Ema

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276397/
"Tregs have been found to suppress various immune cells such as CD8+T cells, dendritic cells (DCs), monocytes/macrophages, B cells, natural killer cells and natural killer T cells"

"In support of the positive influence of oral probiotics on expansion of Tregs, administration of L. casei to mice affected the frequency of CD4+FoxP3+ Tregs in the skin. Whereas this ameliorated skin inflammation, it did not change the extent of in vivo suppressive function of nTregs (29). Accordingly, in an experimental model of colitis, live probiotics as well as their immunomodulatory DNA resulted in generation of higher numbers of FoxP3+ Tregs (36). Moreover, it has also been shown that Tregs isolated after oral feeding with L. reuteri are more potent than Tregs from mice without previous probiotic exposure and could prevent airway inflammation caused by allergies"

*Edited to say* I find it interesting tregs suppress b cells, that's similar to rituximab, is it not?
 
Last edited:

Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
Has anyone ever tested the TREG's out of interest?

If so, could you please share with us the name of the tests and the Lab?

Thank you.
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
Interesting bits from the article @Ema

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276397/
"Tregs have been found to suppress various immune cells such as CD8+T cells, dendritic cells (DCs), monocytes/macrophages, B cells, natural killer cells and natural killer T cells"

"In support of the positive influence of oral probiotics on expansion of Tregs, administration of L. casei to mice affected the frequency of CD4+FoxP3+ Tregs in the skin. Whereas this ameliorated skin inflammation, it did not change the extent of in vivo suppressive function of nTregs (29). Accordingly, in an experimental model of colitis, live probiotics as well as their immunomodulatory DNA resulted in generation of higher numbers of FoxP3+ Tregs (36). Moreover, it has also been shown that Tregs isolated after oral feeding with L. reuteri are more potent than Tregs from mice without previous probiotic exposure and could prevent airway inflammation caused by allergies"

*Edited to say* I find it interesting tregs suppress b cells, that's similar to rituximab, is it not?
L casei and L reuteri are commonly found in many brands of probiotics. I still wonder why he says it must be Swanson.

Guess I should email him and ask!!
 

sillysocks84

Senior Member
Messages
445
It has been requested that we start a separate thread on the probiotic Clostridium Butyricum, so here goes. I'm putting this in the general treatment forum, as this is not isolated to treating only gut symptoms. The microbiome affects everything, and if you are ignoring this fact you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

The CB probiotic is the single most effective intervention I have tried for treating my ME symptoms. I doubt everyone will get the same effects, as our microbiome likely varies hugely. It might be a subset thing. I believe CB is especially effective if you tend towards autoimmunity and high inflammation. If you have seasonal allergies it is a good sign you need this probiotic. My allergies have improved hugely.

I am quoting myself from the following thread, which contains lot of great info on CB, starting around here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-been-looking-for.26976/page-142#post-584062

Just to be clear on the connection between CB and resistant starch (RS), RS feeds clostridia species.

Some effects of CB off the top of my head:

- increases Tregs
- shifts TH2 -> TH1
- TLR4 antagonist
- increases IL-10
- increases AMPK
- butyrate producer
- reduces lactate
- normalizes microflora
- displaces pathogens (h. pylori, candida, e. coli, c. difficile, etc)

I would also like to point your attention to this article, originally posted by @Antares in NYC, describing the importance of clostridia species:

Among Trillions of Microbes in the Gut, a Few Are Special

So apparently clostridium butyricum (cb) DOES INCREASE TREGS AND AMPK
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
I follow the link but I can't find the test name
T-Cell Activation Profile, CD8 Subsets
Test Number: 505750 CPT: 86356(x3); 86359; 86360
Test Includes
Percentage and absolute values CD3+, CD3+CD4+, CD3+CD8+, CD3+CD25+, CD8+CD38+, CD8+HLA-DR+, CD4:CD8 ratio; CBC with differential

Specimen
Whole blood

Volume
Fill tube(s) to capacity.

Container
Lavender-top (EDTA) tube and yellow-top (ACD-A) or (ACD-B) tube

Collection
Invert tube 8 to 10 times immediately after collection. To preserve cellular viability, collect specimen so it will arrive in the laboratory within 48 hours of collection. Indicate date and time of venipuncture on the tube(s) and on the test request form.

Storage Instructions
Maintain specimen at room temperature.

Stability
Temperature
Period
Room temperature 2 days
Refrigerated Unstable
Frozen Unstable
Freeze/thaw cycles Unstable
Causes for Rejection
Hemolysis; specimen refrigerated or frozen; clotted specimen; contaminated specimen

Reference Interval
Reference intervals are established by the laboratory. See table.

Adult Reference Intervals for Lymphocyte Immunophenotyping
CD

95% Confidence Interval

Percentage

Cells/mm3

Minimum

Maximum

Minimum

Maximum

CD3+

57.5

86.2

622

2402

CD3+CD4+

30.8

58.5

359

1519

CD3+CD8+

12.0

35.5

109

897

CD3+CD25+

4.9

25.9

79

535

T4:T8 ratio

0.92

3.72

CD8+CD38+

0

17.7

0

381

CD8+HLA-DR+

0

4.9

0

117

Use
Expanded profile for AIDS monitoring and prognosis. An increase in activation markers is associated with poor prognosis.

Limitations
This test was developed, and its performance characteristics determined, by LabCorp. It has not been cleared or approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The FDA has determined that such clearance or approval is not necessary. Results of this test are for investigational purposes only. The result should not be used as a diagnostic procedure without confirmation of the diagnosis by another medically established diagnostic product or procedure.

Methodology
Flow cytometry

References
Landay AL, Jessop C, Lennette ET, Levy JA. Chronic fatigue syndrome: Clinical condition associated with immune activation. Lancet. 1991 Sep 21; 338(8769):707-712. PubMed 1679864

Sadler D, Keren DF. Surface marker assays in immunodeficiency diseases. In: Keren DF, Hanson CA, Hurtubise PE, eds. Flow Cytometry and Clinical Diseases. Chicago, Ill: ASCP Press;1994:chap 9.