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Treating CMV with Bovine Lactoferrin

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by PhoenixBurger, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    While trying to get my CMV under control, I have been doing a lot of research on possibly helpful supplements. There was a surprising amount of actual data on a few of them and I wanted to share this one in particular, which seemed to be the rock star of them all:

    Lactoferrin:

    Lactoferrin-mediated protection of the host from murine cytomegalovirus infection by a
    T-cell dependent augmentation of natural killer cell activity.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8920822

    This was an *in vivo* study showing that Lactoferrin prevented CMV activity. There are other studies showing that Lactoferrin effectively blocks entry of CMV into new cells when it reactivates.

    This PDF file discusses it in a bit more depth:
    http://bit.ly/1FjNGvU

    So if you are trying to keep your CMV down, this may be an outstanding resource.
    My research has also revealed the following are significant in beating CMV as well:

    Monolaurin supplements
    Vitamin A supplements (careful on this one with dosing, I think I remember reading you can take too much)
    Quercetin

    You can google those words and CMV for more info.

    You can get all of these on Amazon or wherever.

    @heapsreal figured you'd find this informative.
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I think antivirals are the gold standard. I think all the herbal type things like the lactoferrin, colostrum etc etc all look really good on paper but in reality arent as good as antiviral meds, but i think they are a good adjunct to antivirals.

    I have been on ahcc for only a short while and have been using lysine which is suppose to have antiviral properties against herpes viruses. I took a short break off famvir to see how effective they would be but i ended up with a return of viral symptoms within a week. Its possible that once u have your viral load low enough and your immune system is responding then these herbal/natural types supps will be effective on their own??

    Im going to continue with the AHCC a few more months as i have only been on a a few weeks, its suppose to increase nk function and numbers as well as improve immune function overall. I do plan to get some immune testing done down the track and see if there are changes on labs. I will also try another stint off famvir to see if it can help on its own.

    Another interesting supp that may be helpful is artesunate, @Ema sent me an interesting link to some info on it, i have only glanced through it so far. Hopefully she can post a link. It was a popular supplement a few years ago and may find some threads on it.

    Its possible that maybe a good combo of antiviral supps could be effective, we are the lab rats that have to work this out.

    cheers!!
     
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  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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  4. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I think the dose of artesunate may be really critical in whether or not it has any effect. Higher doses than typically used seen to be required. Of course, that ups the cost considerably too.

    Also, art seems to need to be pulsed in order to maintain effectiveness.

    It may also need to be taken away from Vit C and other antioxidants since it works by generating ROS. But I'm not clear on that detail because the cancer research says it works synergistically with C. The parasite studies also seem to show it working in the presence of C as well.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I wanted to ask u about antioxidants and artesunate. If I remember rightly artesunate killed infected cells by increasing oxidation in them. It was thought antioxidants may reduce the effectiveness of them.

    They may have done a treatment like 3days in a row then rest of the week off, but cant quite remember.

    Im still looking into antiretroviral drugs as they are cheaper than valcyte and dont have the side effect of neutropenia that I get from valcyte. I will hopefully have more time off soon to look into this further and then talk things over with my doctor.
     
  6. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    I've been finding lactoferrin helpful at high doses. Would very much like to go higher but the cost is really prohibitive.

    Been trying to source a bulk supplier but haven't managed to find one yet.

    Anyone managing to secure this at a reasonable cost?
     
  7. PhoenixBurger

    PhoenixBurger Senior Member

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    @shannah - that would make sense. In the study above they did 1mg per 1gram of body weight. For me (185lbs) thats something like 38,000mg !!!!!!!!!!!

    If you google Lactoferrin Hep C dose ... they tend to hover around 1,000 to 3,500 mg per day as a treatment dose.
     
  8. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Thanks @PhoenixBurger. I've been at 1750 mg daily for a long while now. Would like to go higher but this is an expensive supplement.
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hard to find bulk powder lactoferrin but there are places that sell colostrum, but not sure what dose u would need to get the bigger doses of lactoferrin??
     
  10. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Here is one of the papers I found on Vit C and artesunate/artemether.

    The authors conclude that Vit C and other antioxidants should not be taken with artemisinin and its derivatives.

    But later they say that Vit C alone also has some effect in killing the parasites.

    Then they say that it doesn't actually seem to matter about Vit C, because all of the test groups had total parasite clearance.

    But then they somehow come to the conclusion that Vit C and artemisinin shouldn't be taken together. I'm not sure how they have reached that conclusion based on their data.

    :confused:o_O

    And then you get the studies with artemisinin and cancer that say that the two work synergistically together and improve outcomes, like this.

    Maybe the mechanism for killing cancer and parasites is different?

    If anyone can make sense out of this, I'd be appreciative. Right now, I don't see any point of discontinuing my high dose C to take artemisinin but the "common knowledge" is that I would be wrong! :)


    Yes, 3 days on and 4 days off is most commonly how this is prescribed in the Lyme world. I think that makes sense. I would at least take weekends off.
     
  11. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Beyond a Century lists it as out of stock. You might send them an email and ask if they have an expected date.
     
  12. leokitten

    leokitten Senior Member

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    I agree with @heapsreal supplements etc just don't work by themselves in my experience. Like you (I think) I am in the virus subset ME/CFS (if it can be called that) presenting with extremely high antibodies to EBV, CMV, HHV-6.

    For antivirals I was on Valcyte + Famvir + Immunovir + supplements (resveratrol, quercetin, AHCC, plus many more) for over a year and it caused huge drops in my titers. I then took a break from Valcyte (as it takes a toll on your body after taking it so long) and Immunovir (because it's expensive and not covered by insurance) but continued to take Famvir and supplements in high doses and just as expected CMV and HHV-6 titers shot back up.

    Famvir has ZERO direct antiviral effect on CMV and HHV-6 don't let anyone tell you differently, the drug does not target viral replication at all in betaherpesviruses. It could only ever have a secondary effect by continuing to inhibit EBV and therefore giving your immune system some help so that it can fight these other viruses. Supplements also just are not strong enough even in combination to do much of anything except as @heapsreal said be a good adjunct.

    I cannot wait until brincidofovir is FDA approved because this will have more power than Valcyte without any of the toxicity.
     
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  13. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Is this based on your experience or some published research on Famvir and the beta herpes viruses?

    Last I checked, most thought Famvir did have some activity, particularly against HHV6, but had just not been put through the testing needed for FDA approval for treating those infections.

    Since Valtrex is more potent than Famvir against EBV, it would be nice to know for sure what activity Famvir has against beta herpes viruses.
     
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  14. leokitten

    leokitten Senior Member

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    People write a lot of things on this site that aren't based on any facts or evidence. Famvir (and Valtrex) have no activity against betaherpesviruses and this is based on the well known mechanism of action of both drugs. Both Valtrex and Famvir work only on herpesviruses which have thymidine kinase (TK), that's how these drugs become activated in virus infected cells (via phosphorylation by TK).

    Betaherpesviruses (CMV, HHV-6, HHV-7, HHV-8) do not have TK. This is why drugs like Valcyte were invented because they needed different nucleoside analogues that were activated in betaherpesvirus infected cells by UL97 kinase (analog to TK in betaherpesvirus) and therefore effective at inhibiting their DNA replication.

    This is not true, there is no evidence that one or the other is more effective against gammaherpesviruses such as EBV.
     
  15. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    So it's based on just your experience then, I take it. There's nothing wrong with that. This site exists for us to share experiences. I am just trying to be clear on your basis for making such a sweeping statement.

    The HHV-6 Foundation disagrees with your statement that they have no activity against the beta herpes viruses. Weak activity is still activity.

    So apparently, as with many other drugs, there are mechanisms of action outside TK phosphorylation at play that are not yet well elucidated.

    I'll have to go back and look for the study I read that indicated Valtrex had greater activity than Famvir. It may have been against HSV1/2 and not EBV. I'll have to double check.
     
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  16. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK47444/
     
  17. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Drugs like famvir and valtrex are used prophylactically to prevent cmv infections in immunosuppressed patients such as those undergoing organ transplant. No links but a quick google will show plenty of evidence.

    Famvir is also effective against hepatitis B and said to be an alternative to alpha interferon.

    Theres been a few people on here who have seen their viral titres to cmv or hhv6 drop on famvir, probably not as effective as valcyte, but they do work for some and a good alternative for those coming off valcyte treatment to help keep viral load down, similar in a way to it being used prophylacticly in immunosuppressed ?
     
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Its my understanding that changing avs from acyclovir to the prodrug valtrex increases the drugs half life and absorption.

    Im guessing the same happens when the prodrug famvir is used instead of penciclovir. valcyte is better absorption and improved etc as its the prodrug to Ganciclovir.

    It would be good to have an antiviral with a long half life that it only requires dosing once a day.
     
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Previous studies of herpesvirus infections have indicated that a virus-specified thymidine kinase is required for the initial phosphorylation of acyclovir [acycloguanosine or 9-(2-hydroxyethoxymethyl)guanine] in the formation of acycloguanosine triphosphate. The latter compound accumulates in infected cells and competitively inhibits the viral DNA polymerase. We found that mouse cytomegalovirus, which does not express a thymidine kinase, was sensitive to the antiviral effects of acyclovir at a 50% inhibitory dose of approximately 0.23 microM. Acyclovir was equally effective against mouse cytomegalovirus in normal 3T3 cells and in 3T3 cells deficient in cellular thymidine kinase. Furthermore, the activity of acyclovir could not be reversed by excess thymidine, which easily reversed the antiviral activity of acyclovir against herpes simplex virus. Using a high-pressure liquid chromatography technique that easily detected acycloguanosine triphosphate in cells infected with herpes simplex virus, we could not detect acycloguanosine triphosphate in mouse cytomegalovirus-infected cells. These experiments demonstrated that the activity of acyclovir against mouse cytomegalovirus is not dependent on a thymidine phosphorylation pathway. Additional experiments are underway to determine whether acycloguanosine triphosphate is produced by another pathway in concentrations sufficient to inhibit mouse cytomegalovirus DNA polymerase.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC171322/

    It would appear there is more then 1 mechanism of antiviral actions of acyclovir?
     
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  20. leokitten

    leokitten Senior Member

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    Both Famvir and Valtrex end up being fairly equipotent in-vivo, please read:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504076/
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015

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