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Transient improvement from antibiotics - help be troubleshoot

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by redo, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    This is basically what I have been doing for some time now. The problem is that it doesn't work to set any kind of schedule for the pulsing; The need and response is not predictable. I have been using them more PRN (as needed), which is also very hard to predict when it will be beneficial (not to mention creating who knows what kind of superbugs).

    My typical abx run: I'm in a flare and can see no obvious cause. I take either Azythromycin or Clarythromycin 250mg BID (2xper day). The second day, or at most within 24-48 hours, I get a profound clearing of symptoms. I continue with improvements 1-3 weeks but then begin to plateau and sometimes slide back down (not herxing). I can continue with the abx indefinitely without any further improvements (I've gone a year and more at least 3 times). I stop the abx and feel good for 1-3 weeks before sliding right back into pre abx condition. It doesn't matter the abx, combination of abx's, or the dose, this same thing happens every time.

    I think the concerns for long term abx use are valid. Really hard on the GI system, including the liver and kidneys. My liver does not like abx. But it seems that pulsing would be ok.....yet not really ideal if the response is actually from killing bugs. I still lean towards immune modulation.
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    hi cloud,
    your experience is similar to my experience with doxycyline although i initially feel worse, i usually pulse them 2days on and 1 off and feel better on the off days but i eventually feel ok on the on days and then it plateaus out. I sometimes wonder if the bacterial infection just go's into hiding and is the reason why a few experts recommend pulsing abx. As for avoiding side effect i take nystatin with doxycyline to prevent yeast/candida infection in the morn with a good probiotic at night away from the abx. Im leaning towards ani-inflammatory effects too, maybe co-infection.

    cheers!!!
     
  3. FunkOdyssey

    FunkOdyssey Senior Member

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    Not all antibiotics are equal in their effects on the gut flora, some are far worse and far better than others.

    Fortunately the most promising vs. XMRV is also one of the least impactful. From the FDA prescribing information:

     
  4. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Minocycline against XMRV? Please do elaborate FunkOdyssey.
     
  5. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    I have an immediate improvement with antibiotics. It only lasts for 3-5 days, then I have severe worsening of all symptoms. I have been dx. with Borrelia though Igenex Lab, but not CDC positive.

    Tried for a couple of years to tolerate antibiotics, but they ended up being just plain intolerable, especially with pain and neurological symptoms.

    I don't think the initial improvement could be related to killing of bacteria, gut or otherwise. I do think it has to do with immune modulating properties, a shift that decreases inflammatory cytokines. They don't seem to be able for most folks to shift the immune system long term. Whatever is causing the inflammatory cytokines to predominate is too strong. (HGRVS?)
     
  6. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Thanks for letting us know what your experiences where liquid sky. Reminds me much of how things happen with me with certain antibiotics.

    Would you mind sharing which antibiotics made you better transiantly? (with me it's metronidazole, biaxin, ceftriaxone, minocycline and more).
     
  7. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    Hi Redo. I've tried a lot of antibiotics, can't remember them all. I remember Ceftin and Doxycycline as the best tolerated. I absolutely had horrible effects from Flagyl. I've tried more, but it seemed like I tolerated the first ones I tried the best, then no other ones were tolerated for very long.

    That's why I think it is a shift in the immune system that decreases inflammatory cytokines that relieves my symptoms. I made it a whole month on the first two I tried, but still had the only real improvement for a few days. After that, I could only tolerate any antibiotic for only a few days to a week. They don't seem to be able to make that shift long term.

    Others with Lyme could find an antibiotic that helped and stay on it with resolution of their symptoms. They only got sick if they went off of them. Never worked that way for me.
     
  8. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I put myself back on mesalamine, which is not an antibiotic but an anti-inflammatory with some anti-microbial properties. It is very mild but it helped me when my gut acted up majorly with daily stomach cramps and it is starting to act up again. I am relatively certain that for me it all originated in the gut (have tested neg. so far for some enteroviruses) - I don't like ABx but there is def some merit to targeting gut microbes in any way possible. Maybe it's time to visit Dr. Chia..
     
  9. glenp

    glenp "and this too shall pass"

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    Minocycline

    Is anyone pulsing minocycline?????

    glen
     
  10. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    I've been thinking lately that perhaps what I am 'hitting' is a stomach pathogen, so within a month or so, I'll try to do a combo and add Omeprazole to the mix. That's the way the stomach pathogen Helicobacter pylori is handled...
     
  11. helios

    helios

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    Glen, I have just started the cecile jardin protocol, which uses pulsed ABx (mainly tetracyclines). I am currently on minocycline along with doxy. The Sth African doctor developed pulsed antibiotics to treat CFS patients who she determined had rickettsia. I have had path tests for rickettsia but they came back negative, but the infectious diseases specialist I was seeing was disappointed that I was negative as the other immunity markers he usually monitors had the same pattern he has seen in his other patients with rickettsia. I showed up as positive for 2 strains of rickettsia with Bioresonance testing + that I am fighting an infection with conventional path tests, plus with my past experience with feeling great (short term only) on ABx, my doctor is giving this protocol a go, which I was pushing to try.

    This post caught my eye, as I too have had periods of fantastic health thanks to ABx. The thing I noticed was that when the ABx or dosages or schedules were changed, was when I felt great. In the past the doctors would ignore this aspect and when I reported feeling great would just keep me on that ABx and same dosage for months, and unfortunately for no benefit at all. I will make another post back in a month or two when I have done a few cycles.
    I have taken mino before, when I tried the Marshall protocol. I did not notice any significant improvment on mino but when I took azithromycin in conjuction I felt pretty good. When I added the 3rd ABx (I think it clindamycin) though my health really declined.
     
  12. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I have used Minocycline for some time, on and off, but no pulsing. Pulsing doesn't work for me, I need at least a week to get some bacterial killing going...
     
  13. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Fascinating! I have noticed the same, quite a lot of times...
     
  14. helios

    helios

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    Probably the best episode of health I had in 20 years was when I was on Doxycycline and Clarithromycin. I thought it was something like 1 doxy a day and 1 clari every 3rd day. I was on that for about 4mths and never really noticed much improvement. His focus at the time was treating mycoplasma infection.
    The doctor then decided to switch them around and it was clari every day and 1 doxy every 3rd + I also thought the dosage might have changed as well. Within 1 day of that change, I felt awesome, like I did when I was a teenager with no CFS. It lasted I thought for about 5-6 weeks before it wore off. The doc kept me on that for the next 7 months and it made no difference. I am pretty sure I told him, to switch things around again, but I cant remember his answer, but I know he didnt. I then decided to switch to another doctor someone recommended who was smart with infectious diseases, but frustratingly he also could not pick up on the significance of the switch in dosage/ABx/timing.
    It is weird, because in that episode, I actually was taking the same ABx I had been for months, all I did was change the timing I took them (maybe also the dosage) and suddenly wammo, total improvement, then it wore off. With a situation like this I dont know if you could describe it as anti-inflammatory effect. Its like it fooled the bacteria, until they adjusted to it. If ABx do provide an anti-inflammatory effect (and tend to think they do because of change to brain fog) then why does it wear off?

    A month back I had a great spell of health which lasted about 3 wks. I took Biltricide (anti-parasite) then Nizoral (anti-fungal). It did not improve my cognition at all which was a real shame as this is my biggest problem. It did however improve my appetite a bit, my strength, my energy, I put on weight (which is so hard for me), my libido, my sleep, my desire to go out and socialize + get things done, and my sense of wellbeing. It is hard to say how much was due to Biltricide, but because it lasted 3 weeks I know Nizoral was doing well for me. When I read how both of these meds are to be used just for short term only, I was so disappointed. I see my doc in 2 wks time, so I find out what he will now come up with. (I have also just started Cecile Jardin's protocol)
     
  15. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    If you ask me, I'd say it's no wonder why the other combination (normal dose clarithromycin, low dose doxycycline) worked better. It almost always does. I seldom hear anyone who's had it the other way around. 1 doxycycline tablet every third day is pretty much the same as no doxycycline if you ask me...

    Clarithromycin, or biaxin as it's often referred to, is often reported to help. Right now I am on low dose biaxin and normal dose amoxicillin. Why? Because it makes me better, and prevents a relapse. Switching things around (changing regime) normally makes me better for a while.

    Very important questions...
     
  16. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    If abx make you feel better straightaway, they're not working as they should. I had a similar experience a couple of years ago whilst on Doxy and Rifampin. I felt an almost immediate improvement in energy and sleep patterns. However, as soon as I stopped I slipped back to the level I was before. That could have been explained by their anti-inflammatory effect but I do not know for sure.
    I don't think it's got anything to do with fooling the bacteria. When abx really work and kill or weaken the bacteria so that the immune system can kill them, what I have always experienced was a worsening of symptoms. I would start feeling worse (chills, foggy, fatigued, night sweats etc) from about the third or forth day in and it escalates from there. Then, after finishing the course, a few days later, I would experience a stable step forward. I've also discovered that taking a break of a few months a couple of times a year helps maintain the same abx effective over time.

    Helios,
    regarding Biltricide, you may want to have a look at the Klinghardt's anti-parasitic protocol. I had a short trial of Ivermectin and experienced an unexpected herx, I'm now looking into trying the full protocol. Klinghardt maintains that dealing with the parasites first should help make shorten use of antibacterial and antivirals. I find it a very attractive theory. All the best

    *Klinghardt anti-parasite treatment-Biltricide (600 mg) twice daily for two days
    -Ivermectin 12 mg one tablet four times per day for fourteen days (take at the same time as Pyrantel Pamoate)
    -Pyrantel pamoate, 1000 mg per day at bedtime for fourteen days. Fill at Key Pharmacy
    -Albenza, 200 mg (after completing fourteen days on Ivermectin and Pyrantel). Two tablets twice per day for fourteen days
    -Alinia 500 mg (after completing Albenza)- Two twice per day for fourteen days
    Order of treatment: Biltricide-Ivermectin-Pyrantel-Albenza-Alinia
     
  17. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I improve greatly on 3g amoxicillin. I have tried many other abx (mino 200, azithro 400, doxy 400, ketek 800 + more) in different combos and they do nothing.
    I too thought it was the anti-inflammatory effect because it was so rapid (within about 8 hours). My doctor said the anti-inflamm effect was minor in comparison to the bacterial killing properties - he said most likely I had gut bacteria crossing into the blood stream. (I do not know if the effect wears off for me because I've never had amoxi for more than a week).

    Interestingly, my cytokines (which are usually high) all normalize on standard abx, though I don't feel better, making me realize that it was not the immune regulation of cytokines that are responsible for the effect (at least not the ones I could measure). Redo - can you systematically measure cytokines on your different protocols and see if they actually are important?

    I think that information could be invaluable. Maybe we should try anti-inflammatory herbs in high doses. See for example Stephen Buhner's book on Lyme where he discusses the immune modulating effects of herbs and roots and the need for very high doses.

    Also worth seeing if you respond on abx that have been shown to have little or no immune modulating effects.

    Also worth noting all abx mentioned frequently on this thread are used to treat Lyme. Lyme can change form, which could take days or weeks, so perhaps you are just seeing Lyme morph? To treat morphing forms you need triple therapy.
     

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