Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Transient Bleeding Issues?

Discussion in 'Autonomic, Cardiovascular, and Respiratory' started by JaimeS, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    Fantastic. Someone else was asking about S.boulardii elsewhere. I shall steer them to your comment. Thanks, Jaime.

    I'm going to take a look at the Reg'Activ, too. I've had a skin issue on my lower back for years which waxes and wanes. For various reasons I strongly suspect candida. Sinus issues, too, so your comments about Reg'Activ are really interesting to me.
     
  2. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    ...but now my sinuses are stuffed up pretty bad. It's weird -- I think I'm beginning to fight an infection there, but that means more stuffiness and discomfort for now. I'm still experiencing all the positive benefits, so I can't complain. Plus, getting my immune system to do anything is like herding cats, so I'm still quite chuffed, as the Brits would say. ;)

    -J
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Interestingly after my 1st capsule of S. boulardii 2 years ago i caught a could after a looong time (a year+) without a sniffle. Gamma E + zinc helped me with that back then.
     
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  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I reckon I went at least 10 years without a sniffle, until one recent example (January?) when I appeared to get a cold. But worse stuff went with it, so I'm not sure what it was.

    Others have not experienced a cold for many years with M.E.

    Hope this makes sense. Am still not back to normal.
     
  5. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    It does! :D
     
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  6. bel canto

    bel canto Senior Member

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    Interesting discussion. Although I have a tendency to bleed easily, I'm seeing a lot more evidence of it as I age. Scratching itchy skin can cause large areas of bleeding and bruising. And I bleed tiny amounts from acupuncture holes. My platelets have always been very low normal. My doc recently ran some blood tests, including prothrombin and clotting time. They were all low normal, but she wants me to see a hematologist. I also have one of the hemochromatosis mutations (hetero), but have always had normal iron levels, which is what you would expect.

    I never take NSAIDS, or aspirin.

    The linked article was really interesting. And I'm thinking I should look into the mast cell issue, as so many on this forum have significant problems.
     
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  7. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Update on the Saccaromyces:

    It may give you candida!

    I was having some real problems understanding this, because I found a reasonable amount of studies that state that it helps rid the body of Candida, but two or three that state, 'nope... it increases Candida's ability to infect'. While I read the latter with the jaundiced eye of someone used to reading that every herbal supplement secretly causes cancer, the studies did not appear to be junk science.

    I know it's popular wisdom that yeasts, fungi and molds can make one more susceptible to infection from other yeasts, fungi and molds, but that didn't explain the former type of study that swears S.B. will inhibit candida growth. Then I found this:

    I wonder about manufacturers' ability to ensure that what they are utilizing is Saccharomyces cerviseae var. boulardii. If they in fact have some other variety of S.C., or an extractive produced in a certain way, their product may be pro-candida. There is a particular study done on rats on a strain of Saccharomyces boulardii from a company Ultra Levure that showed increased susceptibility to candida infection up to three weeks after discontinuation of the probiotic (though most studies agree is IS effective against many kinds of bacterial infections, including C. difficile).

    Both of the studies above are murine or rat studies, so take with a grain of salt. However, if I had a susceptibility to Candida or had recently been through a course of antibiotics, I might steer clear of this particular probiotic until I was steadier.

    I'm really disappointed because I wanted to raise that intestinal IgA! I will have to find some other way to do it.

    Jaime
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
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  8. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Some other way to do it, for the benefit of everyone:
    Dietary fructooligosaccharides induce immunoregulation of intestinal IgA secretion by murine Peyer's patch cells.
    Hosono A1, Ozawa A, Kato R, Ohnishi Y, Nakanishi Y, Kimura T, Nakamura R.

    Gist:

    Mice were put on a diet from zero to 7.5% fructooligosaccharides. For context, those would be medium-sized sugary molecules in agave, chicory root, bananas, onions, leeks, garlic, Jerusalem artichoke and yacon.

    In a diet containing 2.5% FOS, fecal IgA was already significantly increased. IgA secretion in Peyer's patches (intestines) was also up in a dose-dependent manner. CD4+ T cell production increased as well, and so did interferon-gamma, and interleukins 10, 5, and 6.

    FOS did suppress IgG1 production.

    The overall effect is suppression of the systemic immune response to become more type 2 helper T (Th2) dominant.

    In mice, lest we forget; but at least in this study, the FOS amount isn't completely ridiculous. A woman who eats the number of calories/grams of stuff that I do could eat 5-g of fructooligosaccharides to reach the lowest dose described in this study. This is good news because it's been shown that we as a population might have an issue with excessive FOS.

    Encapsulated Bifidobacterium bifidum potentiates intestinal IgA production.
    Park JH1, Um JI, Lee BJ, Goh JS, Park SY, Kim WS, Kim PH.

    Gist:

    Bifidobacterium bifidum increased total IgA and IgM synthesis by lymph nodes and Peyer's patches (in the intestine, IOW). Taking this probiotic made mice increase all Ig-secreting cells in mesenteric lymph nodes and spleen. However, it did not induce an immune response against itself. Interestingly, they found that the mechanism has to do with parts of the B. bifidum's cells rather than any particular activity the bacteria performs.

    Again, mice, so. Be aware of that.

    Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria enhance mucosal B cell responses and differentially modulate systemic antibody responses to an oral human rotavirus vaccine...
    Sukumar Kandasamy, Kuldeep S Chattha, Anastasia N Vlasova, Gireesh Rajashekara, and Linda J Saif

    Gist: The researchers treated pigs with these probiotics and then gave them a rotavirus vaccine. Pigs with the probiotics had a better intestinal IgA response, higher IL-6, IL-10 and APRIL responses of ileal mononuclear cells, and the immunomodulatory effects of probiotics genomic DNA on TGF-β and IL-10 responses.

    Serum rotavirus IgG antibody titers and total IgG titers were significantly lower in probiotic-colonized vaccinated pigs compared to uncolonized, vaccinated pigs, both pre- and post-vaccination.

    Basically, it's saying that these probiotics give you an overall healthier response to an immune challenge via a virus. If you are a pig.


    [Intestinal flora, probiotics and effects on the intestinal IgA immune response].
    (If you can read French)
    Moreau MC1.

    Effect of Lactobacillus pentosus ONRIC b0240 on intestinal IgA production in mice fed differing levels of protein.
    Shimosato T1, Tomida K, Otani H.

    Gist: the protein amount didn't matter, everyone's IgA went up. B cells and Th2 cells also went up, but this part of the experiment was in vitro.

    And in mice.

    ________

    I hope this is helpful, guys. Remember to apply the interleukin-y stuff to Hornig et al.'s work: if you are early in the illness vs 3+ years, you may want to increase or decrease different ILs.

    -Jaime
     
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  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Presumably if one is a mouse or a pig.
     
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  10. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    As stated, @MeSci. As stated.
     
  11. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    Heh. Yes, I keep seeing studies that turn out to be on mice or rats and which suggest something that's at odds with my own experience, making me fairly confident I'm mostly human (or at least non-rat .... comments not invited!).

    Re the saccharomyces, JaimeS, I don't really follow what you're saying about the manufacturers and strains of the yeast. Why would they not know which one they were using? The Jarrow one I have is specific on the packaging as S. boulardii from S. cerevisiae.

    I've used it quite a bit now and my own candida issues seem much improved in the time I've been taking it, although the S.boulardii might not be the reason (I have also been using some caprylic acid - just once a week or so).

    I was on an antibiotic recently and took the S.boulardii because of the evidence for its effectiveness against e.coli type abx problems, which still seems to me like a good bet, based on the evidence I've seen.

    I'm not sure anyone recommends S.boulardii as a long-term staple. Richard Horowitz, whose book first turned me onto it, uses it during and for a little while after antibiotic treatment regimens. Perhaps using it in regular pulses would be an option if you're worried about candida?
     
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  12. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    I think so, @sarah darwins -- regarding short-term use. Everything I saw said that S.B. left the system quickly, but the study concerning candida overgrowth showed that it took about three weeks after cessation of the probiotic for the candida to begin decreasing at a normal rate again.

    So, what the paper I was quoting was saying was that Saccharomyces b. is, in fact, a strain of S. cerviseae. They were testing other strains of S. cerviseae to compare their probiotic power. Since these are the same genus and species, it makes me wonder how skilled the manufacturers really are at telling them apart. The fact that they are the same species would also imply that they can cross with one another. Just how certain are we that we have the 'right' strain of S.C.?

    Maybe the answer is 'very', but it may depend on the brand, the product, and the product's preparation.

    Once again, though, that one is rodent, so it's possible it's a different story entirely in human beings.

    -J
     
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  13. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Hi JamieS, a little bird who is definitely not a rat told me that S.boulardii is the only probiotic you can tolerate. I hope to be able to say the same. What were your symptoms with the other probiotics, if you don´t mind me asking? Do you think they were connected to leaky gut/bacterial translocation?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  14. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Oh, and thanks for the stuff about Candida, that confused me too.
     
  15. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Sorry, @msf , I don't know how I missed this!

    Other probiotics gave me crashy symptoms -- worse brain fog, exhaustion, and a definite immune response in the form of more trouble breathing. Almost a food-intolerance symptom. Not a lot of direct gut-ish stuff like constipation.

    I can also tolerate Dr Ohira's stuff, as it turns out. It has really helped digestion and infective symptoms -- even mood. :)

    -J
     
  16. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Also wondering now if the transient bleeding issue could be Parvovirus B19 kicking up again. I tested borderline positive for it when I was feeling the healthiest I've ever felt with this illness. If I were tested during one of those bleeding episodes, it might show reactivation.
     
  17. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Well, I forgot I tag you. I still haven´t got round to trying it, but I will do so with more confidence based on your report, thanks.
     
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  18. Dragon

    Dragon

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    Hi Jamie,


    Transient bleeding issues are more likely due to the effects of wireless radiation. Nosebleeds are a well known symptom, but it can trigger any week spot to bleed.
     
  19. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Someone 'liked' something here and now I should say I switched entirely to Dr Ohirra's stuff. Been on it for at least a year, now, no side-effects.
     
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  20. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Ahahaha I should add here that eventually -- EVENTUALLY -- after years of use! -- I couldn't tolerate the Dr Ohirra's anymore. Symptoms are now what they are from most probiotics: more like an allergy reaction, with brain fog and trouble breathing. I'm on a much-reduced dose, but I still take it. :)
     
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