Transdermal B12 oils

[Sparrowhawk]

@Athene* thanks so much for the thorough response. Very helpful. How do you supplement the potassium, just with salt substitute or did you get potassium pills?

I ask because I had been eating an avocado a day to get potassium but started having histamine issues with that so I had to stop.

Also, you mentioned 35mg B2 being a high does. Gary (oils guy) recommended I get to 2 x 25mg per day for a month on B2 before event trying the b12 oils. So far I have got dizziness even at 7-10mg of B1 and B2 taken once at lunch. How long did it take you to work up on B2 and from what starting doses? Thanks again!

 

[Athene*]

Cheers, @Kathevans Yep, I get the sweating thing too since b2 - on and off only. Do you get prickles across your back or scalp with the sweating?
I noticed I have a slight (very slight) chesty cough - again on and off. It's not something I'm used to, but I'm not worried about it. The mucus thing you mention could be iron detox as far as I've read on the b2 thread - someone said b2 detoxes iron and the body generates extra mucus to get rid of it...
B2 is certainly doing something, though it hasn't been easy to take. Hopefully it will get easier. I get the dry eyes on an off too and the dry mouth and I already had dry eyes so hopefully this won't continue.
About the mfolate - it was getting to the stage where I needed 40mg daily for a few days and it still wasn't helping so then I guessed it was the low iron that was found on my blood test. And that led me to decide needed higher dose b2 after all, because it's needed to keep heme in the cell.
It does appear to be raising my iron - gums were going very pale, and now they're pinkly healthy again, and as I mentioned the temps are improving so I'm guessing the higher iron is helping my thyroid. I wonder if the sweats are a sign that cortisol is rising? I would welcome that since mine is low, but we'll see, as you say
Oh yes - the mfolate. I began with b2 12.5mg daily then moved to 35mg daily where I dropped about 5k folate, then 50mg b2, where I doped another 5K. So I've dropped 10K mfolate. Now I'm on b2 35mg again (felt the 50 was too much for now), and 20K mfolate. But I intend to slowly raise the b2 and drop more mfolate. I feel I need more folate in my body (a bit achy today), but I want to try to raise it more with b2 and less mfolate. Fingers crossed.
I have a Geratherm thermometer that's very reliable. I use it under my arm for 5 or 10 ten minutes while I'm doing something else. It's been a useful guide for me re thyroid levels, especially waking temperature, which is very revealing of low metabolism/hypthyroidism. You probably know already - but take the temp before moving or getting up, then if you want to check your adrenal function there's another temperature method called DATs (Daily Average Temperatures)
See 'Test 4' on this link:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/
I'm going to start the DATs tomorrow to see if the b2 is helping the adrenals...You mightn't need this but I guess it would be useful to see if b2 is affecting things?

 

[Athene*]

@Athene* thanks so much for the thorough response. Very helpful. How do you supplement the potassium, just with salt substitute or did you get potassium pills?

I ask because I had been eating an avocado a day to get potassium but started having histamine issues with that so I had to stop.

Also, you mentioned 35mg B2 being a high does. Gary (oils guy) recommended I get to 2 x 25mg per day for a month on B2 before event trying the b12 oils. So far I have got dizziness even at 7-10mg of B1 and B2 taken once at lunch. How long did it take you to work up on B2 and from what starting doses? Thanks again!

Hi @Sparrowhawk Not everybody would use my method (potassium gluconate tabs 99mg each x 30 daily). Most would use potassium gluconate powder from the NOW foods brand, but I'm coeliac and the brand description on iHERB states no gluten in ingredients but they can't guarantee there's no contamination of gluten in the factory. The problem with the gluconate pills is that there's an outside chance one might get lodged in intestines and cause erosion, but I always make sure to take a full glass of water with it and a snack only max 6 pills at a time (though with a big dinner I'll take 8), and I sit up straight or walk around after it i.e. I don't take it directly before lying down or curling up - that way I minimise any danger.
I've no choice because I depend on potassium a lot. I intend to lessen it when the thyroid levels come up hopefully, with the help of the b2. I know when I'm hypothyroid I need more potassium, so it's not just an effect of high-dose b12 etc, though that has certainly increased potassium demand a lot. Thing is b12 needs thyroid to be working optimally, so I 'm hoping when everything is getting to where it need to be, I will need less potassium.
I salt my food with Himalayan pink salt - I like the taste and prefer it to the cheap white salt in the supermarket. Otherwise I don't tend to need salt. My sodium blood level is always 142. My potassium level is 4.4 with the supplementing, but had dropped to 3.6 with the methyl vitamins before I realised I needed more potassium.
Yes, Greg mentioned same to me re dose of b2, but I find I need to do it slower, and I also need a bit extra biotin and a smidge of b1. He advised to try to stay at just double RDA for other bs.
See my reply to Kathevans just now re my dosing of b2. It made me dizzy too, and extremely drowsy, but only for a couple of days, but I need to go slow on it.
Let us know how you get on. It's always useful to compare experiences

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @Sparrowhawk I take the b2 on its own with no other b vitamin. I take a low dose b complex broken into 2, twice a day at different times to the b2 (there's 5mg b2 each time in that, but it probably gets used up helping to transport the other b vits)

 

[Kathevans]

I'm going to start the DATs tomorrow to see if the b2 is helping the adrenals...You mightn't need this but I guess it would be useful to see if b2 is affecting things?

Terrific post. Thank you. I definitely have adrenal issues. The only time I did the 24 hour adrenal spit test, my results came back just about flat. I'll look into the thermometer so I can check daily levels. Gee, the last time I remember doing that was when I was trying to get pregnant! (My son just had his 31st birthday!)

So, in the spirit of full disclosure, I gave in yesterday and took 100mcg folate and 500mcg MeB12. It did cause uncomfortable muscle tightening symptoms, but I'd reached the point with stomach upset, IBS, which had actually turned into chronic diarrhea, so I felt it was important to address it.

Today I'l do 400mcg folate to 2,000MeB12 and ramp up from there. So far, no bad muscle tightening symptoms. It will be interesting to see how far I need to ramp up and just how much potassium I'll need to support it. I do use the NOW Potassium Gluconate Powder at rounded 1/2 teaspoon doses, or roughly 300mg. I do this 3-5 times daily. Over the past few days, as my B2 levels remained at about 55-60/day, I was finding that I was having a few irregular heartbeats at night. Not much. But last night, as soon as I added that little amount of folate and B12, it was going off regularly until 1:00 a.m. when I realized I needed to address it. What's amazing about potassium is that it relaxes the heart almost instantly upon ingesting. Really, hardly a minute passes and all is well again.

I'm beginning to get annoyed with doctors who, at least in my case, seem not to want to think about our high potassium needs, or to address them. They fret that too high a level will cause heart problems. What about too low?! I think I've read on here before of people who get prescriptions for a buffered potassium. Am I imagining this? I'm seeing a new alternative doctor in a couple of weeks and I'm going to see if he's willing to come over to my side! Really, we shoudln't have to worry about these stomach issues.

@Sparrowhawk I've found the Celtic Sea Salt to be great. I order it by the 5 pound bag and spoon it into the smaller glass grinders they sell--though the top of the grinder does wear out after a bit. http://www.celticseasalt.com/product/light-grey-celtic/

But these salts have no iodine, so for some years, I've been supplementing with just 3 drops of iodine as well. http://www.bodybio.com/storeproduct417.aspx

Adrenals need the salt and thyroid needs the iodine...

Works for me.

(there's 5mg b2 each time in that, but it probably gets used up helping to transport the other b vits)

I don't know what B-Complex you're taking. I know how hard it is to find a low-dose one and I finally settled on Ben Lynch's B-Minus, but take only a half each day and dividing that into halves as well. What that gives me daily is :
12.5mg B1;10mg B2; 90mg B3 Niacin ; 10 mg B6; 250mcg Biotin; 75mg Pantothenic Acid

Transporting the other Bs? But if they are all in the co-enzymated form, say B6 as p-5-p, would that still happen? I know Greg says we don't need these vitamins, in these forms, but well. Hmmmm.

I can't say I know.

 

[garyfritz]

Cheers @garyfritz! I have a terrible habit of reading websites (like this one!) on my phone in bed when I should be winding down for sleep. Interesting about the bright light - I read about it before and overlooked it, but I really should take it seriously. I will have a look at that link. A full night's sleep would be such bliss!

Light exposure in the evening can really mess up your circadian rhythms -- especially the blue-ish light from phones and computer monitors. TVs are bad too, but not as much because you usually watch them from farther away. There's a great free app called f.lux that tweaks the spectrum of your monitor to reduce the blue content and reduce the impact on your sleep. It gradually changes the spectrum at sunset so you really don't notice it. I've been using it for years. It's available for PCs, Macs, Android, and iDevices (though you have to jailbreak those).
http://justgetflux.com

The makers of f.lux recommend a product by a couple of noted sleep psychologists. It's a pair of "glasses" that beam green-blue light into your eyes. It can be used to reset your schedule for international travel, but it's also supposed to be good for SAD (winter depression) and insomnia. It's supposed to work much better than the high-lux light-boxes that people sometimes use for SAD. See e.g. the Insomnia section at http://re-timer.com/testimonials/

 

[CCC]

Light exposure in the evening can really mess up your circadian rhythms -- especially the blue-ish light from phones and computer monitors. TVs are bad too, but not as much because you usually watch them from farther away.

Do you have any published studies about that?

Mums of the world need this ammunition

 

[garyfritz]

@CCC, there are many references at https://justgetflux.com/research.html

You can also Google for "computer blue sleep" and find hundreds of articles, including:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21552190
http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-light-before-bedtime-bad-for-sleep/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120827094211.htm

If you want to find lots of research e.g. from NIH, you can narrow your search. Google for "Computer blue sleep site:nih.gov"

But I can tell you from experience that it won't necessarily change your child's behavior. Especially if (as in my case) your (ex-) spouse thinks you're just being a control freak and undermines your efforts to help your child.

 

[Athene*]

Terrific post. Thank you. I definitely have adrenal issues. The only time I did the 24 hour adrenal spit test, my results came back just about flat. I'll look into the thermometer so I can check daily levels. Gee, the last time I remember doing that was when I was trying to get pregnant! (My son just had his 31st birthday!)

So, in the spirit of full disclosure, I gave in yesterday and took 100mcg folate and 500mcg MeB12. It did cause uncomfortable muscle tightening symptoms, but I'd reached the point with stomach upset, IBS, which had actually turned into chronic diarrhea, so I felt it was important to address it.

Today I'l do 400mcg folate to 2,000MeB12 and ramp up from there. So far, no bad muscle tightening symptoms. It will be interesting to see how far I need to ramp up and just how much potassium I'll need to support it. I do use the NOW Potassium Gluconate Powder at rounded 1/2 teaspoon doses, or roughly 300mg. I do this 3-5 times daily. Over the past few days, as my B2 levels remained at about 55-60/day, I was finding that I was having a few irregular heartbeats at night. Not much. But last night, as soon as I added that little amount of folate and B12, it was going off regularly until 1:00 a.m. when I realized I needed to address it. What's amazing about potassium is that it relaxes the heart almost instantly upon ingesting. Really, hardly a minute passes and all is well again.

I'm beginning to get annoyed with doctors who, at least in my case, seem not to want to think about our high potassium needs, or to address them. They fret that too high a level will cause heart problems. What about too low?! I think I've read on here before of people who get prescriptions for a buffered potassium. Am I imagining this? I'm seeing a new alternative doctor in a couple of weeks and I'm going to see if he's willing to come over to my side! Really, we shoudln't have to worry about these stomach issues.

@Sparrowhawk I've found the Celtic Sea Salt to be great. I order it by the 5 pound bag and spoon it into the smaller glass grinders they sell--though the top of the grinder does wear out after a bit. http://www.celticseasalt.com/product/light-grey-celtic/

But these salts have no iodine, so for some years, I've been supplementing with just 3 drops of iodine as well. http://www.bodybio.com/storeproduct417.aspx

Adrenals need the salt and thyroid needs the iodine...

Works for me.


I don't know what B-Complex you're taking. I know how hard it is to find a low-dose one and I finally settled on Ben Lynch's B-Minus, but take only a half each day and dividing that into halves as well. What that gives me daily is :
12.5mg B1;10mg B2; 90mg B3 Niacin ; 10 mg B6; 250mcg Biotin; 75mg Pantothenic Acid

Transporting the other Bs? But if they are all in the co-enzymated form, say B6 as p-5-p, would that still happen? I know Greg says we don't need these vitamins, in these forms, but well. Hmmmm.

I can't say I know.

Glad to be of some help @Kathevans The potassium issue has been really difficult for me and it's something Greg has addressed - it's highly complex and I'm praying he's right. He knows I'm using huge amounts potassium as a survival technique but the reasons he gives for the potassium going low have to do with the hormones adrenalin, ACTH and aldosterone. It's a complex endocrinological feedback loop that I've often attempted to understand and tried to get the endocrinologist to examine (he wouldn't), but the upshot of it is that Aldosterone, if you're low in b2 gets 'dumped' into your bloodstream which in turn massively lowers your potassium.

That's why he asks people who haven't started methylation protocols to use b2 before methylation vitamins (too late for us!) to have their thyroid and adrenal function more balanced before attempting methylating, because, without b2, methylation vitamins cause the over stimulation of adrenalin, then ACTH then aldosterone which lowers potassium. And as you know already, thyroid and adrenal function are intricately linked. This would apply to @Sparrowhawk too. He mentioned G told him to take b2 for a full month before methylating. (@Sparrowhawk, now that I think about your potassium question, if I had my time over again, I would try to go the b2 only route for the month, and only then take methylation vitamins and see how you go with potassium levels). I'm sure small amounts of potassium would do no harm and we're all probably lacking in various minerals for several reasons, but I always hated being on such a huge amount of potassium. I just couldn't function without it. Funnily enough I dropped 500mg yesterday - but I don't want to jinx things by saying anything just yet.

I've always known I had an aldosterone issue, because of the constant peeing and thirst I experience for periods of time. The thyroid meds and hydrocortisone have helped in the past, but I'm really hoping to get off the hydrocortisone. I probably will have to remain on thyroid meds because I've been on them for 15 years and so thyroid function won't come back now - if it's given exogenous thyroid hormone for long enough, thyroid tissue tends to wither. Honestly the endocrinologists here have made such a mess of me...

I hope this might chime with some of your experience @Kathevans I seem to remember you have the running to the loo thing too, as well as the low adrenal function?

P.S. The low dose B complex is the one Fredd recommended: Nature Made B-Complex. I cut in two, take twice daily

 

[Athene*]

Light exposure in the evening can really mess up your circadian rhythms -- especially the blue-ish light from phones and computer monitors. TVs are bad too, but not as much because you usually watch them from farther away. There's a great free app called f.lux that tweaks the spectrum of your monitor to reduce the blue content and reduce the impact on your sleep. It gradually changes the spectrum at sunset so you really don't notice it. I've been using it for years. It's available for PCs, Macs, Android, and iDevices (though you have to jailbreak those).
http://justgetflux.com

The makers of f.lux recommend a product by a couple of noted sleep psychologists. It's a pair of "glasses" that beam green-blue light into your eyes. It can be used to reset your schedule for international travel, but it's also supposed to be good for SAD (winter depression) and insomnia. It's supposed to work much better than the high-lux light-boxes that people sometimes use for SAD. See e.g. the Insomnia section at http://re-timer.com/testimonials/

Many thanks, @garyfritz Makes a lot of sense. Damn phone!

 

[Kathevans]

he asks people who haven't started methylation protocols to use b2 before methylation vitamins (too late for us!) to have their thyroid and adrenal function more balanced before attempting methylating, because, without b2, methylation vitamins cause the over stimulation of adrenalin, then ACTH then aldosterone which lowers potassium.

Thank you for this, @Athene* You've got a lot of knowledge that's valuable here! I hadn't heard this information from Greg, but then, I hadn't mentioned how much I pee at night! Really, I'm up constantly, every hour or hour and a half or two hours. Strangely if I take a heavy drug, which for me is a relatively low dose of Ambien 5mg or valium 2mg, I might sleep 3 or 4 hours, but that's amazing for me. I haven't been able to re-take the Oat test because you have to have a 6 hour stretch of sleep where you don't pee so the sample can be more dense.

Interestingly, this morning as I sucked on my 1/4 source Naturals FMN--4.5mg, I felt a short-lived anxiety in my body. Then it seems to relax me more. I had a quite severe anxiety disorder when I was younger and it may be related to that or my ACE++ snp.

Yesterday, after adding the Folate 400mcg back into my regimen, I had a lot of stamina during the day and felt fairly a-symptomatic, but towards evening that tight face bagan to recur. And it was worse during the night, I could feel different parts of my face tightening, my cheek bone area, around my lips. It might be the level of Folate I'm taking, that my body wants more still. But I'm holding off for today, trying to get in at least 50mg of B2, especially the bit toward late afternoon, my last dose, which I missed yesterday, to see if that makes a difference.

Overall, I slept better, deeper, with morning dreams, but was up and down. When I woke early this morning and was awake for nearly 2 hours, my stomach was a bit upset and I chewed a DGL, knowing the licorice was good for my adrenals. I've never addressed them directly, though I do feel there's definitely a B2-adrenal link, as B2 has certainly over-time contributed to an increase in energy. This is still subtle, not massive. But I know it's there. I haven't taken big doses of Vitamin C, which I know can also help. I bought some Liposomal C and it gave me instant energy and a horrifically sleepless night, but then this was before I began to address the B2 issues. Maybe it's changed now...

I'm sorry to hear about your thyroid issues. Doctors seem to know only two things: drugs and the knife. It's a little dismaying. Was it on this thread that I mentioned how I was pressured into having my heart ablated for a-fib and other irregularities? The Cardiologist said, "Once that cat is out of the bag, you can't get it back in." Well, I did. It took me a lot of time, but now, it seems my heart just goes into irregular beats when it needs potassium. And frankly, I suspect it was a B vitamin/methylation block--the addition of methyl-folate in a multi without adequate B12 for me--that might have caused the problem in the first place. Or, horrifyingly, the accompanying lower potassium that came with this supplementation. No doctor recognized it, or even looked for it.

And it would take me another year of worsening pain and finding this website before I began to piece together what might be happening. To think I slept sitting up, propped with pillows and duvets for over a year and it might have been nothing more than a need for potassium...

You'd think there'd be a list of basics doctors would ask. But no.

@garyfritz Thanks for the spectrum hookup. As to help for kids, would it help to be reminded that once past about 11 years old, any suggestions from either parent get tossed out as hair-brained anyway?! Later they come back and ask for advice...

 

[Athene*]

Thank you for this, @Athene* You've got a lot of knowledge that's valuable here! I hadn't heard this information from Greg, but then, I hadn't mentioned how much I pee at night! Really, I'm up constantly, every hour or hour and a half or two hours. Strangely if I take a heavy drug, which for me is a relatively low dose of Ambien 5mg or valium 2mg, I might sleep 3 or 4 hours, but that's amazing for me. I haven't been able to re-take the Oat test because you have to have a 6 hour stretch of sleep where you don't pee so the sample can be more dense.

Interestingly, this morning as I sucked on my 1/4 source Naturals FMN--4.5mg, I felt a short-lived anxiety in my body. Then it seems to relax me more. I had a quite severe anxiety disorder when I was younger and it may be related to that or my ACE++ snp.

Yesterday, after adding the Folate 400mcg back into my regimen, I had a lot of stamina during the day and felt fairly a-symptomatic, but towards evening that tight face bagan to recur. And it was worse during the night, I could feel different parts of my face tightening, my cheek bone area, around my lips. It might be the level of Folate I'm taking, that my body wants more still. But I'm holding off for today, trying to get in at least 50mg of B2, especially the bit toward late afternoon, my last dose, which I missed yesterday, to see if that makes a difference.

Overall, I slept better, deeper, with morning dreams, but was up and down. When I woke early this morning and was awake for nearly 2 hours, my stomach was a bit upset and I chewed a DGL, knowing the licorice was good for my adrenals. I've never addressed them directly, though I do feel there's definitely a B2-adrenal link, as B2 has certainly over-time contributed to an increase in energy. This is still subtle, not massive. But I know it's there. I haven't taken big doses of Vitamin C, which I know can also help. I bought some Liposomal C and it gave me instant energy and a horrifically sleepless night, but then this was before I began to address the B2 issues. Maybe it's changed now...

I'm sorry to hear about your thyroid issues. Doctors seem to know only two things: drugs and the knife. It's a little dismaying. Was it on this thread that I mentioned how I was pressured into having my heart ablated for a-fib and other irregularities? The Cardiologist said, "Once that cat is out of the bag, you can't get it back in." Well, I did. It took me a lot of time, but now, it seems my heart just goes into irregular beats when it needs potassium. And frankly, I suspect it was a B vitamin/methylation block--the addition of methyl-folate in a multi without adequate B12 for me--that might have caused the problem in the first place. Or, horrifyingly, the accompanying lower potassium that came with this supplementation. No doctor recognized it, or even looked for it.

And it would take me another year of worsening pain and finding this website before I began to piece together what might be happening. To think I slept sitting up, propped with pillows and duvets for over a year and it might have been nothing more than a need for potassium...

You'd think there'd be a list of basics doctors would ask. But no.

@garyfritz Thanks for the spectrum hookup. As to help for kids, would it help to be reminded that once past about 11 years old, any suggestions from either parent get tossed out as hair-brained anyway?! Later they come back and ask for advice...

You have my sympathy - doctors just aren't educated enough tp understand the biochemical chaos caused by low b12 in all systems of the body as Fredd has pointed out. If it wasn't for Freddd's protocol I wouldn't have even been able to read the posts here, or felt like I had any hope at all. Greg has highlighted a few more issues I never would have worked out properly on my own, but I only heard about the b12oil in the first place through reading your chat with Johnmac and then seeing @garyfritz's detailed and thorough post about it. We've all been through so much and it's great that we can help each other along a little bit.
Have you tried the 'adrenal cocktail' (somewhere on STTM site) when you wake up in the middle of the night? It's designed to suppress the adrenalin/aldosterone surge by raising the blood sugar and cortisol level which, when it goes too low from low blood sugar in the night, wakes you up. It consists of a drink, or snack, whichever you prefer that contains potassium, vitamin c, small bit of glucose and fat. People use a mix of tartare sauce (potassium) in orange juice. It's good to have something fatty with it like a few peanuts. It actually works - suppresses the adrenalin surge and sends me back to sleep. I can't bear lukewarm, sugary orange juice, so instead I swallow with water a 500mg vitamin C capsule, one or two potassium 99mg tablets and an evening primrose oil capsule or vitamin E capsule, whichever I have.
I don't know if I'll always need potassium with the b2 /b12 protocol, but even to get to the stage of having 400 or 500mg daily would be a big improvement from 2.5K or 3.0K!
'Drugs or the knife' - great phrase. There's fear in it too - they get boxed in. They learn to specialise very narrowly and not to venture outside of that, to avoid speculation at all costs, to stick to tried and tested methods. I can understand that and it does make a lot of sense. And there's always the worry about being sued, or about some medical board or other slapping their wrist for doing something unconventional. But someone has to look outside the box at some stage. It's got very protectionist. I understand they have to protect their careers, but some of them take it too far at the expense of patients. There are some decent doctors though. My current endo is trying to help. At least he admits I'm beyond his level of expertise, but he hasn't written me off, and says he will check my bloods regularly to keep me safe, if I want to try other treatments he can't prescribe (not even allowed to prescribe methylcobalamin, only hydroxocobalamin).

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @Sparrowhawk Apologies, I've been addressing you as 'she'. Have since edited! I guess the same things apply in relation to what we were all talking about, though @Kathevans we do need a good level (not too much) of estrogen for adrenals to function optimally. Too much or too little can screw up cortisol levels

 

[Sparrowhawk]

P.S. @Sparrowhawk Apologies, I've been addressing you as 'she'. Have since edited! I guess the same things apply in relation to what we were all talking about, though @Kathevans we do need a good level (not too much) of estrogen for adrenals to function optimally. Too much or too little can screw up cortisol levels

No worries! Common confusion given how vague the username is. I'm honored, really.

 

[Athene*]

Sweet

 

[Kathevans]

Have you tried the 'adrenal cocktail' (somewhere on STTM site) when you wake up in the middle of the night? I

I've never heard of the 'adrenal cocktail' before, but it sounds like a possible fix. Amazing. I never thought about low blood sugar and the cascade of metabolic changes that would bring you fully awake. Interestingly, I often feel that later waking, or earlier, which is to say around 3 or 4 a.m., as a shock, kind of panicky, but in a subtle way and I know I'm up for a while. I appreciate your variation on the formula as it's hard for me to image peanuts in the middle of the night. But I get the drift. I'll try it. But do you mean you don't drink the orange juice? If not what is your replacement for the glucose part of the mix? Maybe coconut water... I'm afraid my estrogen levels may be rock bottom. I'll have to have those checked... That's another thing on my list!

I don't know if I'll always need potassium with the b2 /b12 protocol, but even to get to the stage of having 400 or 500mg daily would be a big improvement from 25K or 30K!

I've heard that after the body heals over the course of a year or so, we generally tend to need very little or at least, less potassium. It isn't true for Freddd, but I think he's a unique case--as is each of us, of course. I'm currently taking 1200 or so in the powder and trying to get in some high potassium foods. I stopped dairy again a week ago, just to challenge some of my gluten/IgA issues, but in a week or so I'll try adding some things back in and maybe I'll start with the dairy. I always drink a glass of coconut water with my dinner--another 500mg of potassium. Every little bit helps.

I cleaned house for 2 hours today. I felt stiff and sore afterwards, but not as bad as I might have. We'll see how the night goes. I'm amazed I even had the energy to do it, or the motivation.

Now my epsom salts bath...

 

[Johnmac]

After 6 weeks, I'm still doing well on the oils (+ 40mg B2, 50 mg B1, some selenium & C, & a pinch of iodine). I use the "Ice" from B12Oils in Australia, which is - per dose - .7mg methyl & 1.8mg adenosyl.

Have been able to drop m-folate right down to about 800 mcg from 3 or 4 times that, pretty much forget about potassium, & drop the carnitine altogether.

Greg's prediction that the high folate, carnitine & K dosages (& titrating up & down) wouldn't be needed once I'd added B2 to the mix has proven true so far. The B1 is because I don't get much in my diet: apparently most people won't need it.

I'm in the middle of some ghastly but undiagnosed gut bug - possibly giardia I picked up in SE Asia recently. So it's hard to be more definitive about symptoms, as that saps my energy. But certainly the deep fatigue I had 6 weeks ago (limbs felt like lead) has gone. Have only noticed a small improvement in cognition to date - but that's apparently normal: physical energy apparently comes back a long while before brainpower.

(Similarly, a friend with dementia symptoms lost her fatigue on Day 1, & has started laughing & engaging with people more, since she went on the oils. But her memory is still no good.)

My mB12 dosage 6 weeks ago on the Country Life lozenges was 10 to 15 mg/day; plus adenosyl something similar every week.

I presently take the oils twice a day, giving me 5mg of B12 per day. The effect is much stronger than the lozenges because the penetration is better - perhaps 80% vs. 5%. I had quite marked euphoria for the first week. The effect is also smoother through the day - no real peaks & troughs. More like eating a hash cookie than smoking a joint, for those of you who can remember the 1970s.

A big factor for me is how easy the oil is to 'take': just rub it in (30 seconds) & forget. No more juggling amounts of half a dozen different nutrients, & no more dental caries. A smooth ride like this also makes crashes less likely. The only one I've had to date was in Week 2, I'm guessing as a result of cold turkeying off carnitine & high-dose methylfolate. By Week 3 it was gone.

I can't say how much energy I've got back till I fix my giardia (or whatever it is) - tho definitely quite a bit. CNS symptoms (slowed mental functioning, declining memory, poor attention) haven't gained more than 10 or 15% to date, & are expected to be a slow haul. One year to remyelinate my fading brain...?

More news as it materialises. Good luck to others trying this path. I'd be fairly surprised if anyone were using lozenges a year from now.

 

[Athene*]

I've never heard of the 'adrenal cocktail' before, but it sounds like a possible fix. Amazing. I never thought about low blood sugar and the cascade of metabolic changes that would bring you fully awake. Interestingly, I often feel that later waking, or earlier, which is to say around 3 or 4 a.m., as a shock, kind of panicky, but in a subtle way and I know I'm up for a while. I appreciate your variation on the formula as it's hard for me to image peanuts in the middle of the night. But I get the drift. I'll try it. But do you mean you don't drink the orange juice? If not what is your replacement for the glucose part of the mix? Maybe coconut water... I'm afraid my estrogen levels may be rock bottom. I'll have to have those checked... That's another thing on my list!



I've heard that after the body heals over the course of a year or so, we generally tend to need very little or at least, less potassium. It isn't true for Freddd, but I think he's a unique case--as is each of us, of course. I'm currently taking 1200 or so in the powder and trying to get in some high potassium foods. I stopped dairy again a week ago, just to challenge some of my gluten/IgA issues, but in a week or so I'll try adding some things back in and maybe I'll start with the dairy. I always drink a glass of coconut water with my dinner--another 500mg of potassium. Every little bit helps.

I cleaned house for 2 hours today. I felt stiff and sore afterwards, but not as bad as I might have. We'll see how the night goes. I'm amazed I even had the energy to do it, or the motivation.

Now my epsom salts bath...

Wow @Kathevans Two hours cleaning! That's really good going! How did you get on afterwards? Did you sleep ok and how are you today after the exertion yesterday? I'm keeping my fingers the b2 is working for you. Johnmac seems to be doing good too. Your waking symptoms really do sound like high adrenalin as G says, don't they? Yep, you're right - there's no sugar in my adrenal cocktail mix , but I'm sure there's a bit of sugar somewhere in the supplements. Anyhow, it seems to help the way it is. I'm sure you'll come up with a creative way to get the potassium, glucose, fat & vit C in!

 

[Athene*]

P.S. @Kathevans I'm still struggling with the sides of Adocbl. Have you managed to take it since we last talked about it? G said Biotin would help to absorb it properly. I wonder if you ever tried that?

http://gotmag.org/the-adrenal-cocktail/

Re the 'adrenal cocktail' recipe above. I must have read the 'fat' ingredient somewhere else, but people use different recipes. Above adrenal cocktail uses some pinks salt too. You mentioned you have trouble with vitamin C. If you read the comments on the link, some people are find rose hips a useable form of vitamin C. Some people on the adrenal forum I got this link from are using the cocktail both during the day as a pick-me-up when they feel they're crashing, and during the night, when they wake with startles, sweating or heart-poundng

http://gingernewtrition.com/the-adrenal-cocktail-creamsicle/

This one has a nice name at least!

 

[Biarritz13]

Has anyone heard something about this product?