May 12, 2017 Is International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day
International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day is May 12th, 2017. Jody Smith shares some information about upcoming events and ways you can be heard ...
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  1. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    I’ve got a couple of questions here for my fellow Phoenixes:

    For years my tooth enamel has been wearing away in many patches, and it is now getting quite bad, and should probably go and see a dentist. I am wondering if anyone else here has had the same thing going alongside their ME/CFS?

    The reason I am bringing this up on the forum is because I have begun to suspect that there may be a correlation between my CFS and this tooth enamel problem. The teeth and bones are said to be mineral storehouses, that the body will draw from if it has to. My enamel first started wearing away a decade ago, at the same time I started coming under the stress and pressure that would eventually cause my CFS. Before that I had no tooth enamel problems…

    It’s a curious situation, because, although the tooth enamel has been wearing away in certain patches, there is no tooth decay or pain. The only thing is that I cannot drink really cold water or eat juicy sweet fruit like apples, as this will hurt the spots without enamel.

    I have always brushed my teeth twice a day, and floss once a day. I only ever use a medium toothbrush; not a really firm one. I eat responsibly, and have almost no sugar.

    If anyone has any thoughts or experience on that matter, I would very much like to hear it. Especially if you know how to fix it!
     
    Invisible Woman likes this.
  2. DoggerFisher

    DoggerFisher

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    When I am bad my teeth (and gums) get really bad but just lately whilst still bad my teeth are fine I think it's something to do with digestion for me. Have gone low carb diet am no longer getting bad teeth problems apart from one night when I ate some healthy veg soup out the freezer which tasted really sweet and gave me tooth sensitivity again. Dentist just says we lose enamel over time but that doesn't explain the wild fluctuations in tooth and gum health I personally experience
     
  3. tinacarroll27

    tinacarroll27 Senior Member

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    Got ME 25 years ago and ever since I have had problems with my teeth. Started to get white patches on my teeth and they started to crumble and they got worse and worse over the years. Have had so many fillings and in the end it got to the point where I had to have many extractions. Also suffer really badly with ulcers on my gums and have had to have many courses of antibiotics over the years. My mouth is a mess and I am wanting to have the rest of my teeth extracted but I am too ill now and severe to get to a dentist any more. I had beautiful teeth before the ME and was always proud of them and looked after them but this illness has messed up my mouth! I am so ashamed now and feel self conscious when I talk. People always ask me "what happened to your teeth?" and I feel terrible. I'd love to have a nice smile again, not to mention the effect on my health of rotten teeth but I can't get out to a dentist.
     
  4. Carl

    Carl

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    I get a lot of tooth plaque and deposits on the rear of my teeth. After reading, vitamin K is required to active important proteins which properly allow the take up of minerals such as calcium into the teeth and bones. I have not had too many other teeth problems apart from one decaying tooth which my dumb dentist refused to refill leaving it to decay.

    I have recently started vitamin K in fairly high doses in the hope that it helps my teeth and bones. I have broken a lot of bones in recent years and read that the hypothalamus is important to bone health and my hypothalamus is partly, about 40% destroyed. I may have to use higher doses of vitamin K after I have verified that the products that I am using are bioavailable because cis forms are no use to the body and many products can have large % of cis form rather than the more important trans form. Chances are that CFS might not be able to produce sufficient quantities from K1 or maybe there is insufficient nutrients available with the high detox demands of this illness and the liver being so overwhelmed with other things.

    It is vitamin K2 which is the important one of which there are a number of available forms MK-4, MK-7 etc from different sources. It might be worth you checking this to see if you get any benefit. Some people increase the dose until teeth fur ie plaque stops, a dose which I have so far not been able to reach.
     
  5. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    Very interesting so far, thank you for these replies.

    @tinacarroll27, we're falling apart aren't we?

    @Carl, nice work on finding out about the Vitamin K; thanks for sharing that info.

    Myself, I have been suspecting that with CFS, you really burn through minerals, and maybe don't absorb them or use them as well, so the body dips into the teeth and bones as supplements.
     
  6. Vojta

    Vojta Senior Member

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    I have similar problem which started in last years. In my case I think it has something to do with acidity. After taking some acidic supplements it got worse. My gums are also shrinking if I eat anything acidic or after cognitive exhaustion(lactic acid?). Then I have pain if I drink/eat something cold or hot.
     
  7. PatJ

    PatJ Senior Member

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    See this site for a recipe for re-mineralizing tooth powder.
     
  8. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member

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    My UK dentist prescribes a high flouride toothpaste and a mouthwash which is available in supermarkets.

    There are two versions made by Colgate under the product name Duraphat: 1)2800ppm and 2) 5000ppm. As far as I know this is prescription only. It is important to try not to ingest any (as far as humanly possible).

    The mouthwash is another Colgate product called Flourigard. He recommends I rinse with this after meals.

    Naturally, this won't help the underlying problem if it is due to loss of mineral deposits but will help protect the surface enamel from external damage. This is especially important if you have to eat little and often as your teeth come under more frequent attack than if you just eat 3 times per day.
     
  9. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    Well, thank you to everyone for the replies.

    @Vojta, I have been taking a lot of Vitamin C, so it could be due to that, however, the problem was still happening before then, so I am not totally convinced it was this in my case.

    @PatJ, thanks for that link; have you tried their recipe yourself, or was it just something you came across in your research?

    @Carl, would you mind telling me the exact Vitamin K product you use, and what quantity you take?

    @Invisible Woman, thank you for the advice. However, do feel free to call me a conspiracy theorist, but I do try to avoid Fluoride altogether.
     
  10. PatJ

    PatJ Senior Member

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    I've been using the tooth powder in that recipe for the past couple of months. Previously I had been using a more basic tooth powder for several years. Since I stopped using toothpaste, and started using toothpowder that contains calcium carbonate, a small pit in one tooth has filled in instead of deepening.

    I have some areas on a couple of molars that were gradually worsening with toothpaste, but with toothpowder, and brushing after every meal, these areas stopped becoming worse and have stayed the same for 4-5 years.
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Are you celiac? It's a symptom of celiac.
     
  12. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    @PatJ, well, I just ordered all the ingredients to the tooth powder last night, so I'll get to see for myself very soon. If it can help my teeth out, then that will mean it's pretty darn good. However, it would also be good to know why this is happening in the first place. Thanks, but I am not celiac, @Learner1.

    Which type of bentonite did you use, @PatJ? Sodium bentonite or calcium bentonite?
     
  13. PatJ

    PatJ Senior Member

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    I use Aztec Healing Clay (calcium bentonite). I looked around at other recipes and found that AHC was popular. If the tooth powder does help with rebuilding your teeth it will be a very gradual process. Hopefully it will work well for you.
     
  14. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member

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    @David Jackson

    I have had a tooth problem, in that my teeth develop cavities despite brushing, flossing, hygiene appointments for which I don't have the energy. I have a routine where I brush ( with Duraphat) and tepe my teeth in bed lying flat. I can't stand to do it but I manage just propped up.

    My dentist has suggested I have a dry mouth possibly as a result of antidepressant medication and this makes my teeth more vulnerable because of less saliva.I have also had dry eyes for 40 years, eye drops and gel needed daily. My gp says I don't have sjorgens on the basis of a blood test.

    Could you be taking any medication that contributes to demineralising your teeth? Or acidic foods? My gums are starting to recede leaving parts without enamel which can be sensitive but that's anno domini

    I hope you sort this problem. Teeth can be such a nuisance.
     
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
    PatJ likes this.
  16. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    I have a genetic problem with my teeth,maybe ME can affect genes
     
  17. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    Well, thank you to everyone who has contributed something above.

    @PatJ, I ordered the calcium bentonite as well - the sodium bentonite sounded like it was meant for sealing drains, or something. Thanks heaps for that link.

    @Binkie4, I don't take any medications, but I do have quite a bit of ascorbic acid every day. So that is a possibility. However, it did start happening a very long time before I started the ascorbic acid. Still, I think I am going to start doing something after I take the Vitamin C to neutralize the acid, just in case.

    @wastwater, maybe ME can affect our genes. I didn't even know that we could have a genetic problem with out teeth. It does seem to me that the two problems have developed alongside one another in my case... perhaps a better description of my original question might be: can stress somehow erode tooth enamel, because long before my health finally crashed with CFS, I was under a lot of stress... and my enamel had started wearing away.

    @Hip - thanks for that post link. I do take a B12 supplement, but just once per week. And it is not the inside of the teeth, next to the tongue, that have been wearing away, but the outsides. So I don't think it will be the B12. Regarding the re-mineralization you talk about in that post, what do you think of this tooth powder recipe that PatJ linked me to:

    3 tbsp. calcium carbonate
    2 tbsp. bentonite clay
    1/2 cup baking soda
    1/4 cup Himalayan salt, powdered
    1 tsp. peppermint essential oil
    10 drops myrrh essential oil
    10 drops clove essential oil
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Check the ingredients to see if you B12 sublingual supplement contains citric acid. If it does, this may be the cause of your problems, even if you only take it once a week. There are B12 sublingual tablets that do not contain citric, and those I think are a better option from the teeth perspective.

    When I started using a sublingual B12 tablet daily, within a week or so, all my teeth became very sensitive to hot and cold, and became sensitive to all food and drink. So it seems that citric acid, when left in the mouth and saliva for the 5 or 10 minutes that you suck a sublingual tablet, rapidly erodes tooth enamel. I have a dry mouth anyway (low levels of saliva), which I think only acts to further concentrate the citric acid. My own enamel erosion and sensitivity also occurred on the outside side of the gum line, rather than the tongue side.

    I started gargling with high concentration fluoride mouthwash twice daily, in order to try to rebuild the enamel as quickly as possible, before any carries could appear in my teeth. Within a few weeks using the fluoride mouthwash, the sensitivity disappeared, due I presume to tooth remineralization.

    The advantage of fluoride is that it creates a stronger type of apatite (apatite is the name of the tooth enamel substance). So fluoride, which is naturally found in the water in many areas of the world, is the fastest way to create a strong remineralized layer of tooth enamel.

    Once I started using B12 without citric acid, I never had any further problems.



    Apart from the calcium and sodium bicarbonate, I am not sure of the rationale for the other ingredients of your remineralization cocktail. Perhaps you can explain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  19. David Jackson

    David Jackson

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    @Hip, well, these are the other ingredients in the B12 I am taking: sorbitol, mannitol, natural raspberry flavor, natural peach flavor and magnesium stearate. So do you think that is safe for my teeth?

    The re-mineralisation tooth powder I am just copying from a website that PatJ linked me.
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Anything could be in those two; they could contain citric acid, as this is used as a flavoring. You'd need to email the manufacturer to find out more.
     

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