To vaccinate or not me and my children

[morse27]

There's a huge difference between ingesting toxins into the digestive tract and injecting them into the muscles. It's a completely false analogy.( Having said that, I have now stopped using aluminium foil - seems about as daft as sprinkling your food with powdered lead.) Try doing a search on Pub Med if you want a better understanding of the issues with vaccine adjuvants - I'm not a scientist. I assume you have not personally been vaccine damaged but if there's one day in my life I would rerun if I could it's a particular day in October 1992. Would I rather have died from tetanus aged 20 or live with what I now have? Quite honestly, the former.
Something is causing the huge increase in autoimmune disease. Maybe more than one thing. But the levels are getting truly frightening and some families seem more at risk than others.

this book is a conspirancy make by a doctor with conflict of interest with GSK !!!!! this doctor is a criminal and will be in jail for life
he earn many money to write this s**t
89 000 young girls are died or disabled in the world with HPV vaccine , its not a conspirancy

 

[Eeyore]

This is all unsupported conspiracy theories. Science has very thoroughly and conclusively debunked any link between autism and the MMR vaccine. The only doc who ever published supporting it was Wakefield, who lost his medical license because he was taking money to falsify results. Read Dr. Lipkin's work on it - he was pretty open minded heading in, but the data conclusively showed that it was unrelated. He also debunked XMRV - but he's continuing to look for causes of ME - and finding abnormalities - and publishing very professional studies that the scientific community pays attention to. This is what we need - not more quacks.

Anecdotally, I know one autistic kid. Her parents are anti-vaxxers and she never got any vaccines.

I think there is a small segment of the population that reacts poorly to vaccines, to varying degrees, but they don't cause autism. There does seem to be a phenomenon where people who are developing autoimmune diseases manifest them more rapidly - but not more often. At 6 months past vaccination, there is more autoimmune disease in the vaccinees, but at a few years, the total is no different - it just moved up the date of onset (not exactly sure of the months/years there but the basic idea is right). It makes sense to me that vaccines (especially with adjuvants) upregulate the immune system, and if it's already going in a bad direction, then it might make things worse. In these cases it's likely due to unrelated disease in the person, latent or manifest, unrelated to the vaccines.

Doctors may be slow to accept new ideas but they're not evil. They want to see evidence. The truth is that there is really no evidence for the claims you are making. Vaccines have saved far more lives than they have cost, and are more important that antibiotics in terms of medical progress.

 

[user9876]

This is all unsupported conspiracy theories. Science has very thoroughly and conclusively debunked any link between autism and the MMR vaccine. The only doc who ever published supporting it was Wakefield, who lost his medical license because he was taking money to falsify results. Read Dr. Lipkin's work on it - he was pretty open minded heading in, but the data conclusively showed that it was unrelated. He also debunked XMRV - but he's continuing to look for causes of ME - and finding abnormalities - and publishing very professional studies that the scientific community pays attention to. This is what we need - not more quacks.

I think Lipkin is still interested in autism as well. After looking at the MMR vaccine he had theories about one particular gut bacteria.

 

[Eeyore]

I think Lipkin is still interested in autism as well. After looking at the MMR vaccine he had theories about one particular gut bacteria.

References please.

 

[user9876]

References please.

There is an interview here

https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/it-takes-guts

And this paper

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024585

I'm pretty sure I remember one particular bacteria (in the gut) being mentioned in an interview but can't see that now,

 

[Eeyore]

Yes, at the time, Lipkin thought it should be investigated. So he set up an incredibly rigorous study to look for genetic evidence of measles virus in autistics. He was very open minded and just wanted the truth - I think this is a general trait of Drs. Lipkin and Hornig - they are scientifically open minded but follow the evidence.

The results—five years in the making—appeared in 2008 in the journal PLoS One: There was no difference in the levels of measles virus in children with autism compared with those without, no link between measles and autism. Three years later, following a British medical disciplinary investigation, The Lancet retracted Wakefield’s paper. - See more at: https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/it-takes-guts#sthash.RDVS0SWA.dpu

Lipkin's work conclusively showed there was no link between autism and the MMR, and was instrumental in getting Wakefield's paper retracted. After the 08 study, Lipkin felt that we had finally proven there was no link between autism and the MMR. It was in part because of Lipkin's paper that the British authorities looked into and discovered Wakefield's crooked financial dealings and falsification of results - which led to him losing his medical license.

The measles / autism link at one time was not clearly understood. It's perfectly reasonable to suspect it until you disprove it. However, this theory has been thoroughly investigated and thoroughly disproven - thanks in part to Dr. Lipkin (who I think was the most open minded and did the most thorough, well constructed study on the subject). The MMR is not connected to measles.

 

[rosie26]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread. I just want say that I have always been pro-vaccination and still are. But, more cautious now with a few of them. I am so glad I lived in a time where I was protected from some serious and fatal illness. I might not be alive right now if I had not had all the vaccinations that I have had.

I have never had a flu vaccination and I think that one could be risky for me. And I think I am right in that view because my mother had a serious reaction to the last flu vaccination a couple of years ago after having had no problems whatsoever with it for many years previous. She went permanently deaf in one ear after falling very ill with vertigo the day after the vaccination. She was bedridden for over six weeks. I cautioned her not to over exert in the hope that her body would recover fully. She did recover but is permanently deaf in her right ear.

So things can change. You can be fine with no problems for many years or never have problems, but for some, things can change and a serious reaction can occur.

 

[wastwater]

(vaccines) viruses can expose immune problems

 

[barbc56]

I leave you to contemplate his career and I doubt that you have such good references in Immunology

While at first glance a vita like this might look impressive, quantity isn't necessarily a measure of the quality of that work. it may be necessary to publish but it's not sufficient enough to say that the studies are valid.

If a theory is based on a faulty hypothesis, study design is poor, etc., you can published 3 or 300 studies, but it's still pseudoscience. You can’t dress it up and call it science.

 

[Deepwater]

While at first glance a vita like this might look impressive, quantity isn't necessarily a measure of the quality of that work. it may be necessary to publish but it's not sufficient enough to say that the studies are valid.

If a theory is based on a faulty hypothesis, study design is poor, etc., you can published 3 or 300 studies, but it's still pseudoscience. You can’t dress it up and call it science.

Hi Barbie. Can you explain for us why it's pseudo-science? I'm just concerned the debate has descended into ad hominem spheres.
Also, a couple of things people have said that I meant to pick up on but have been too ill this week:
a) I'm not a statistician, but people are struck down with ME or other autoimmune disease just one time in their lives, so wouldn't this be unlikely to coincide just by chance with a vaccination? Ergo I should think over-reporting of vaccine damage due to such chance coincidences would be very much more rare than under-reporting due to medical scepticism (particularly of ME) or reluctance to acknowledge harms done.
b) Where on earth does the claim that vaccine damage is less likely than lightning strike come from? Vaccine-induced autoimmunity is actually not that rare at all once ME is factored in, and is also seen in animals following introduction of vaccination programs. The poor old Spanish sheep are just the latest.
Surely people with ME have reason to know from their own experience that diseases denied by the medical establishment can be all too real.

 

[barbc56]

@Deepwater

This is an important question but too much for one post.

This has been debated extensively in the scientific world and there is very strong evidence that vaccines on the whole are not harmful.

Without meaning to be disrespectful, have you read the other side of the question but more importantly with no prior perceptions?

I have done both as this is a very personal topic for me and wanted to gether as much information as possible. Believe me if the science was saying vaccinations do more harm than good, that is what I would believe.

I do believe vaccinations can cause me/cfs but for only a small proportion of us.

I think adverse reactions are often overeported as getting a vaccination is something that can stand out in our memories. Especially for attributing effects later in time. It's easy to confuse an event with causation.

The only adverse reaction I don’t believe happens is autism because of the etiology of the condition and how it works. But it can have affects of permanent autism like symptoms. Autism is present at birth and even prenatally. Environmental factors can come into play but a lot may occur in the womb.

I can come back with urls with information but as I said it is too big an issue for one post. Maybe even for a thread. Books have been written about the subject.

 

[Ian]

One of out 42 boys in the US has autism. Literally an epidemic, an absolute tidal wave of brain damaged kids, and yet the CDC and friends can't figure it out. Ask yourself, why not? Why are the Amish not effected?

 

[morse27]

One of out 42 boys in the US has autism. Literally an epidemic, an absolute tidal wave of brain damaged kids, and yet the CDC and friends can't figure it out. Ask yourself, why not? Why are the Amish not effected?

Logically they are not affected and unvaccinated children or pregnant mothers.

http://dailymed.online/donald-trump...l-candidate-to-tell-the-truth-about-vaccines/

http://yournewswire.com/autism-rates-explode-in-asia-after-introducing-western-vaccines/

 

[EtherSpin]

I'd say make really sure you don't have an underlying genetic condition that predisposes you to CFS. I have EDS and one of my 3 kids does (the first) and at the time I only knew about the CFS and bub no 1 had such a reaction to the measles (and some other stuff,forgotten which) that concerned doctors came to us in the waiting room,moved us to the isolation area and then we got multiple phone calls from different officials at my states department of health to apologise and sound out if we were satisfied with the doctors response, we guessed they were checking if we would talk to journalists or something. we now space out the schedule as far as is still within the recommendations (for all our kids, to be on safe side in case the others are just too young to diagnose with EDS)

 

[barbc56]

sk yourself, why not? Why are the Amish not effected?

I was surprised to learn that the Amish do vaccinate. Furthermore, Autism does exist among the Amish. This is called the Amish Anomoly.

 

[Ian]

Yes they do 'vaccinate' but having one or two vaccines is nothing compared to the full CDC schedule of shots. What is the current CDC total, 30 shots by 18 months? Many Amish don't vaccinate at all, and it's known their rates of vaccination fall well below that required for 'herd immunity'.

You won't find any other community in the US that has 15% of the kids who have never received any shots of any kind. Perfect for a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study. Shame this study will never be done. They will continue to do more BS studies that compare kids that have received a lot of shots, compared to those that have received slightly less. And guess what they find no association. It would be like comparing rates of lung cancer in those that smoke 50 cigarettes a day, vs those that only smoke 49, and finding no link. That is exactly what they did in the Verstraeten study. They just had to keep re-analyzing the data until the link went away.

 

[Snowdrop]

One of out 42 boys in the US has autism. Literally an epidemic, an absolute tidal wave of brain damaged kids, and yet the CDC and friends can't figure it out. Ask yourself, why not? Why are the Amish not effected?

I'd be careful in describing people with autism as brain damaged, I doubt many on the spectrum would be willing to be portrayed as such.

I have trouble understanding the don't vaccinate argument. The alternative is mass outbreaks of life threatening illness. If vaccination does indeed affect a tiny proportion of the population then there should be research to identify who's at risk. But just opting out without any compelling science puts that individual as well as new borns and in utero babies at grave risk.

Having said this vaccinations are not placebos and I wish that Dr's would stop thinking in terms of convenience and spread the vaccinations out so that children's little bodies have a chance to respond without having to deal with multiple insults--this may apply to live vaccines only.