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TMG Side Effects or General Methylation?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Wendi C, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    I'm on a relatively new path with the Freddd protocol. I recently added TMG to my regimen. I didn't notice much until I took the full 500mg powder form. Now even if I cut back to half I notice within minutes an extreme tiredness and brain fog. Then within an hour or two after taking all the rest of the protocol, achiness and general malaise like all I want to do is sleep. Sometimes nausea works it's way in, too. I'm wondering if this is a good or bad thing. I've been on the protocol for a few weeks, but these new symptoms are only within the last few days of adding TMG.
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Wendi C: I haven't been on Freddd's protocol long, myself. I just added low-dose SAM-e a couple of days ago (going well) and plan to add in some TMG soon to see how that does me. So any answers to your post are of interest to me from a personal standpoint.

    What I'd like to know is how long you've been doing Freddd's protocol, what you're taking, how much you're taking, etc. I think anyone knowledgeable about TMG who can attempt to answer your questions will need to know that, too.

    Can you volunteer a little more info?
    Wendi C likes this.
  3. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @Wendi C , sounds bad to me. Are you planning to keep using it? You're only +/- on BHMT 08, so why bother?
  4. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    @Critterina - I don't understand all that is important to know about the SNP's and how they affect what you take. For me, it's sort of a shot-gun approach hoping the combo works. I have an MD advising me but I can only afford to see him about 3-4x/year and I think he only understands some basics about MTHFR. Honestly, I tell him what people here are doing and he'll say to start slow and see how I feel. I tried SamE a long time ago and I got massive headaches from it so avoiding that for now. My NutraEvals he runs show a need for most of what I'm taking except for B12's. I never show a need for that and have no symptoms when I take it. I was assuming that getting the methylation going would start to kill bugs and thus perhaps make me feel a bit ill.

    I'm taking the AdB12- 1/day, methlB12 (sub-q) @ 1/2ml/day, B-Complex (sub-q) @ 1/2 ml/day,folinic acid @ 800mcg/day, Quatrefolic @ 4000mcg/day, mag/potassium, L-Carnitine @ 500mg/day, zinc @ 100mg/day, ALA @ 500mg, selenium and molybdenum.

    I've been doing the above for about 3 weeks.
    Critterina likes this.
  5. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    I just thought it odd that a lot of people talk about stimulation and alertness with TMG, but not for me.. Total opposite. In fact, I just took a tiny dose away from all other things and it did in fact make me a little sleepy. Perhaps tomorrow I will just not take it at all and see how the day goes.
  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    @Wendi C ,
    I certainly don't know everything that's important to know about SNPs, either. I associate TMG with the BHMT 08 mutation, but that's a pretty simplistic understanding. I understand TMG sometimes is problematic for people with COMT mutations, but I don't know how consistent that is.
    How do you interpret your reactions, then? Do you power through, thinking you're doing some good? Do you stop, saying that the reaction is bad? To me, brain fog is something I think I would avoid, but I'm not going to criticize your decision.
  7. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    Detoxing heavy metals and candida were some of the worse brain fog I've ever had so I associate it as a good thing, but this is an entirely new ball-game so I don't know what to expect from the supplementation. II power through praying it's doing good. Hoping anyone else here can offer input on these reactions.
  8. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Wendi C: I'm no expert but a few things jump out at me.

    The three week mark was where I got really sick when beginning methylation/Freddd's protocol. I had to increase my folate significantly. Research "paradoxical folate deficiency" and "donut hole" on this forum and see if maybe increasing your folate is a step you want to take. It worked for me. I'm still having some minor symptoms but I've been pretty messed up for at least a couple of decades so am willing to give healing some time to work through. However, I do agree with @Critterina that you need to evaluate if you want to do that. "Powering through" is a personal decision and may not work for everyone.

    If you up your folate you probably also would want to increase your mB12, like doing sublingual lozenges at different times of the day. My understanding is that methylcobalamin clears the body fairly quickly, even sub-q. And a half ml isn't that much. It's over standard recs for mainstream medicine, but that doesn't signify much of anything. I do sub-q 1.5ml in the morning and then supplement a couple of times per day with at least 4000mcg sublingual each time, hold them between teeth and gums for at least an hour. Holding the lozenges is not as hard as it sound and it seems to be necessary to infuse a beneficial amount through the tissues.

    Read this thread posted yesterday by @stridor about amounts of mB12 and healing on Freddd's protocol in general

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/ok-this-is-weird-mb12.28753/

    Worth noting is I had a bad reaction to SAM-e years ago, too, when it first became the rage. I was reluctant to add it to my current methylation regimen because of that bad experience. But I tried it about a week ago and it seems to have a bit of a beneficial effect. Certainly hasn't detracted from anything. I'm on low dose (200mg/day) . I'm thinking now that my bad reaction was because I wasn't taking all the necessary cofactors needed make it work properly. Perhaps that was the source of your bad reaction, too. I wouldn't advise adding it in now, because if you're going to add anything you probably need more methylfolate and mB12 until you get leveled out, but you might consider it for the future.

    Also, I don't know much about how to read the genetics, as I've never been tested. But I do know that some people can't use folinic acid. Is there a particular reason you're taking additional folinic acid and not just straight methylfolate? From what I understand there's no downside to using methylfolate by itself even if you can process folinic acid and folic acid properly...but if you take folinic or folic acid and you *can't* process them properly, it can interfere with your body's ability to use the methylfolate. Make sense? So if your body can't use folinic acid it could be blocking the action of the methylfolate you're already taking. Again, read about the donut hole and paradoxical methylfolate deficiency.

    Finally, regardless of methylation, 100mg/day is A LOT of zinc. That much zinc can cause problems, especially without adequate bioavailable copper to balance it. Did your doctor advise you to take that much? I've never heard of a rec to take that much zinc, ever and I've been learning about and fiddling with supplements for several decades,. About 60mg/day for a very short time is about as much as I've ever heard anyone recommend anywhere, anytime, for anything, unless actively chelating. Unless you're doing this for a specific purpose and have been advised by your doctor, I strongly suggest reducing the amount of zinc you take by at least half.

    Hope that gives you a little to think about. :)

    P.S. I received TMG today so will let you know if I get any good or bad effects from it.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  9. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    That's great input @whodathunkit. I have a 3 year old so my reading time is nil especially WITH brain fog.. I just don't have the energy. I try, but I feel super overwhelmed. I've also had this for 20+ years so lots of healing to do.

    I appreciate your input on the zinc. No one advised. I just saw that 60-75mgs was suggested. My pills are 50mg each so one in the am, one in the pm. I'll take your advise and just do one. I'm always low in zinc though. Can't figure out why.

    Good to know about SamE as well. Maybe after a while I'll see how it goes and ask doc about it. I looked at Heartfixer and saw that COMT and VDR +/+ make us individuals much more sensitive to methyl donors as Critterina had mentioned. I also did find one post on another site via Googling TMG and sleepiness. One poster did mention it made them sleepy so takes it at night but I think it needs some B's so I take it after my sub-q's.

    Wow! 1.5 ml of MB12! I have no issue with taking more, but the darn stuff is crazy expensive. I paid $50 for my small bottle from the compounder.

    Again, thank you so much for your input. It helps a weary mamma who has little brain power left to learn. Let me know how you do on the TMG!
  10. Wendi C

    Wendi C

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    @whodathunkit - I read the thread from Stridor and noted he liked the report from Nutrahacker.. I went ahead and paid to get mine.. Super enlightening! I have to say though, still a bit confusing. Being COMT says avoid methyl B12 and take Hydroxy, but then being VDR says to take MethylB12 and encourage methyl donors. Ahhhhhhh! If only I had a crystal ball!

    Anyhow, you might think about investing in that report, too. It breaks it down so easy to understand what nutrients your SNP's cause you to need more.
  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I haven't had my genetics tested, and am in fact still on the fence about it because I'm not sure I want to know (just for example) if I have a dementia gene or whatever. IMHO ignorance *can* be bliss sometimes. :p

    But I will advise this after years of frigging around with supplements: don't worry as much about what someone (or your genetic report or whatever) says should happen, and rely instead on your own experience of what actually does happen.

    One reason I like Freddd's philosophy so much is because he is experiential. He worries less about what his genetics say is supposed to happen and plots his strategy based on what actually does happen. That's how I think, too.

    IMO even with a genetic analysis there are simply too many unknowns to say for sure how anyone will react to nutritional supplement. Best to find out for yourself one way or another, because if you don't try you run the risk of missing out on something that could really help you. "Starting low and going slow" should keep the worst of the adverse effects at bay while still allowing you to get a feel for what might work and what definitely won't.

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