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TMG, Sam-e, and the Deadlock Quartet

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by acrosstheveil, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    I am up to 16mg of methylfolate a day, 650mg l-carnitine fumarate, 30mg methylb12, and 10mg adb12 a day right now. I do have some improved mental energy but it is not as significant as I had hoped for. Could I be missing something? Should I try adding Sam-e or TMG? Which should I try first? And, what are some other factors which can inhibit methylation?
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Acrosstheveil,

    B1 and B2 > 20-30mg each daily, b3 > 100mg or thereabouts tends to increase need to potassium and/or folate and reduce effectiveness. Normal inhibitors, NAC, Glutathione, sets of glutathione precursors, whey, folic acid, folinic acid, folate, folinate, natural veggie extract b-complex or veggie extracted folates can all cause folate deficiency symptoms for a number of possible reasons.. SAM-e can often get things started in similar situations. Then TMG. After that a switch to the ATP pathway with biotin and then D-ribose while keeping the others going. Some people appear to find cod liver oil extra Vit A & D with a total of 5000 IU of D.. Zinc, 50mg or so is also a possibility. I had every one of these except D and biotin, make sizable differences in effectiveness of methylation. Zinc was intense enough I had to do it in a two step titration. Sometimes some of the multi ingredient types of "neuro" drugs can have glutathione precursors in them. Sometimes two different products each give you one of a pair.

    Unusual inhibiters; arsenic, bismuth (very rare but can be very damaging), cyanide and some other chemical toxins, chemo therapy drugs whether used for arthritis or cancer or whatever, Metaformin and probably a dozen or two other medical drugs.

    Improved mental energy is good. How many FMS/CFS suymptoms do you have from the following lists? Did it increase as you increased doses of which Item(s)? On the lists of symptoms by nutrient what nutrient groups do you have symptoms in? Have you tried ALCAR or the liquid Jarrow carnitine (freebase). LCF is a percentage thing but isn't 100%. Where it makes a difference it's ALCAR about 10%. The freebase works for both but a mix works for neither. The ultimate maker of the carnitine should be Sigma Tau. Jarrow, Drs Best and a number of other brands get their carnitine from Sigma Tau. That seems to be the most reliable maker, under many retail names.

    There are a lot of these little details than can make a huge difference. Good luck.
     
    Ninan and merylg like this.
  3. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    did you mean to include a link to the lists?

    i have lots of exhuastion, brain fog, neurological pain, stomach bloating, mast cell activation issues, many food/chemical sensitivities, and agitation. Could ALCAR work better than LCF? I remember taking ALCAR many years ago and it was VERY potent neurologically speaking. almost too much sometimes. I feel like the LCF isn't doing anything even when I take a large dose....I am still flat out exhuasted. On the otherhand, when I took alcar years ago, I remember getting strong mental (almost forced) energy.

    so you are saying alcar should be more effective than LCF or did I misinterpret you?
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Acrosstheveil,

    From what you say the ALCAR is the form that works for you. The good news about carnitine is that the results are strongly dose related. I had to titrate from 64mg to 500mg. 500mg right off the bat was a blown away amount, way way way too much at first. Now it merely maintains equilibrium. Some people have to titrate from as low as 100mcg a day (3 divided doses of 33mcg) because of they immensity of their response. Carnitine can do amazing things in healing and generating energy (ATP) in the body and nervous system. The list is around somewhere and I see if I can find it. I don't remember what list I had in mind when I wrote that. So which list(s) are you interested in?
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I've just been listening to a recent Martin Pall vid, NO/ONOO-, and he suggests ALCAR for helping with this cycle. I've just gotten some, will see if it helps.
     
    OnTheMend likes this.
  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Has anyone bought ALCAR that smelled kind of off? Mine did and I wasn't sure about it
     
  7. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    i had the powder that turned yellow. i think it oxidizes. still seemed effective though.
     
  8. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    freddd, i was referring to the lists of cfs/fms symptoms you referred to.
     
  9. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    my sensitivities just keep getting worse and worse. I saw a new doctor today and i had a reaction to something in his office. not sure what the cause is.
     
  10. sheclimber

    sheclimber

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    @acrosstheveil , @Freddd , or anyone else - are there starting and target dosages for SAMe and TMG? recommended brands?
     
  11. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    For SAMe you can split a 200mg tablet and start with 1/2... (100mg). if no side effects you can take the whole tablet. Typical dosage are between 200 and 600mg. Sometimes higher for depression or other problems.

    Similar thing with TMG. You will probably find 500mg tablets which you can split in halves or thirds to see if you tolerate it.

    At least that's what I do, since I learned the hard way that what seems a low/normal dose of a certain supplement it's not for me. My body needs small amounts first and after a while I can increase without problems.

    Actually TMG is the exception to the rule... I can't take any. It rips my stomach apart :(
     
    sheclimber likes this.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    This is the list with the symptoms sorted by what nutrients had effects on symptoms. This does not include all the symptoms from the raw symptoms list, just the responsive ones. Some symptoms appear multiple times reflecting different orders of response in various people.

    SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0

    In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

    morning joint stiffness and pain
    paleness
    acid reflux
    nausea
    daily vomiting
    standing with eyes closed, lose balance
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atrophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    burning muscle pain
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    sore burning tongue

    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    Bursitis
    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittent diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bulimia
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hyper segmented neutrophils
    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrhic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores


    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff
    Drowsy


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl

    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    Clumsiness
    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin
    Slow to adapt to night vision


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF

    Difficulty in word finding


    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils

    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    sub acute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl



    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle



    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA


    Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1

    Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

    1. Initially – Mecbl

    2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

    3. + 4 months AdoCbl

    4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

    5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

    6. +1 year LCF

    7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

    8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

    9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

    10. + 4 years remove TMG

    11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.





    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations


    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse



    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding


    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo


    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body



    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
     

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