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TMG helping a LOT too.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by CAcfs, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    I am sorry to create a new post everytime something helps me, but I feel it's important. I have always thought, through the course of this, "why don't people blast it from the rooftops when something helps?" So I am.

    So this week, on the heels of my Acai success (been taking Acai awhile, but for some reason lately it's been really clicking with me, perhaps because the stress of planning a class reunion/plane ride/trip with family is over and I can now think and sleep).....anyways, on heels of Acai success during "lack of stressful month," I started being diligent with TMG (tri methyl glycine). I have the Now brand tablets that exploded in the bottle due to humidity, but somehow I figured out a way to swallow a tab a day.....

    Wow! Definite energy boost, 15 minutes later. Not so much brain function, just feeling like I could walk, jog, be up! I have pep in my step.

    Right now, this is the theory I'm operating under..... http://planetthrive.com/2009/06/pall-noonoo-protocol/

    Yes, I've been creating a lot of posts. I feel like I am finally finding things that help, and getting recent stress off my shoulders is making the successes from the supplements shine even more. I have tried many things, like many of us. I feel the TMG may even be better than Acai. I feel they are both more helpful to me than any B12 or B vitamin I've tried. So far, the most helpful B12 seems to be either Perque sublingual hydroxy or methyl B12 shots, but I've given up on depending on B's for help. They help, but not as much as other things, for me, right now. NAC seems to help me too, but to a lesser extent then Acai and TMG.

    Order of helpfulness: Now brand TMG, Now brand Acai capsules, Now brand NAC with hydroxy B12 perque sublinguals (taken together, they are tied for third), methyl B12 shots.

    This is based upon taking said supplement, and observing how much better the next few hours are. With all of the above, I "notice" a difference. If something doesn't produce anything noticable and day-altering, I don't mention it on this forum.

    I don't know WHY anything is happening, just trying to help others. I use iherb.com to buy everything, because I see success from their supps, so why try something from Whole Foods, etc? I am afraid to change brands/suppliers.

    I still have CFS. I am just feeling somewhat better. I still think my sleep is not ideal and is not leaving me refreshed. Working on that.
  2. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Hi CAcfs,
    what is the TMG dose you tried if you don't mind?
    Did you take it at the same time with other supplements (thinking about synergetic effect) ? Thanks for your answer.
  3. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Since that's an exercise supplement taken in fairly high doses, it's also sold in bulk form, such as a kilo of powder for ~$35.
  5. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    It's interesting, from the other article about acai's effect on immune response that you originally posted (and that I reposted on CAcfs's acai thread),:

    "We next examined cytokine production by Acai-treated human PBMCs. Among the twelve cytokines analyzed, six were consistently induced in PBMCs by 100 µg/mL of Acai polysaccharide fractions, as compared with control cells. For Acai-1, these included IL-1α {fold increase (FI)=4.8}, IL-1β (FI=15.9), IL-6 (FI=223), IL-10 (FI=57), TNF-α (FI=23), GM-CSF (FI=4.2) (Figure 4D)."

    we know that acai is able to increase levels of the same cytokines that trimethylglycine/betaine decreases (under conditions of hypoxia anyway, in the article you cite above).

    So to some extent a certain amount of the immune modulating effects of both acai and TMG may be offsetting each other, theoretically.

    TMG has not been good for me in the past, even though I'm heterozygous for a couple of Yasko's BHMT SNP markers. But then I don't do well on SAMe either, so I'm probably already sufficiently methylated (under Yasko's approach).

    So far acai is having a positive effect for me. After I've experimented with it a bit more I'll try to make a post on CAcfs's acai thread.
    lnester7 likes this.
  6. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Good Catch!
  7. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    I am 90% sure I wasn't taking them together, because normally when I try something new, I stop other things so I can gauge any reaction. I was actually also a little afraid, after seeing how well I reacted the the TMG (almost felt like rocket fuel for stamina, aka, my walk turned into a mild jog at times).....I was actually afraid to mix the Acai with it, for fear it would feel like "too much" and make me crash.

    I was taking 1,000 mg TMG. Now brand from iherb.com. Those tablets do explode in the bottle, and I am not sure if they fixed the problem, because I ordered this awhile ago and never used it. I recently came across a thread from Gavman where he was talking about almost exactly what I am describing, just benefits from TMG....I will post it here. I commented on it, because he was taking 500 mg, and I commented that I may want to switch to the 500mg since I was seeing almost too much of a boost.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/improving-heaps.15643/

    I found that after I tried the TMG.

    About immune modulation, I am pretty sure my effects are not due to immune modulation, since I see the positive effects so profoundly and so quickly. Would you guys tend to agree? Inester7? I was thinking anything impacting the immune system wouldn't help quickly? Or maybe it would, almost how cortisol would help someone with lupus?

    My hunch is that this has something to do with glutathione, like Rich mentioned, and that is based on seeing how much glutathione can help someone, quickly. I am sure there are immune-modulating effects of the substances too though. But keep in mind, what do I know?? I am just reporting what I experience, and that is ALL I can report.

    I recently went off all supplements due to something I can't discuss. I'll go back on these later of course, but I'm a little sad I can't keep experimenting at the moment.
    Hanna likes this.
  8. CAcfs

    CAcfs Senior Member

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    Found this recently about Acai and thought it was interesting. I am posting it in 4 threads, this being the 4th, so bear with me if you see it elsewhere. I just feel it's a relevent update.

    I have not been on this site much lately at all, but I recently came across this article stating that Acai upregulated...or did something to.... two genes relating to glutathione in a mouse study (I think I paraphrased that properly). I was looking for a quote about Acai and cytokines, but I ended up finding this. READ THIS!!!!!! IT IS SHORT. Click link below, scroll down to the section in the middle labelled "Study Details"(it is a short paragraph, but I can't copy it here).

    http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Research/Amazing-acai-alleviates-atherosclerosis-Study

    This would explain possibly why Acai helps me in the same way TMG seems to help me, glutathione. I agree with Rich that all roads lead to glutathione. I think the main problem in my CFS is what Cheney says, "too high cytokines and lack of gluathione" (paraphrasing). What's interesting is that certain supps that should lower cytokines don't really produce energy in me, but then some really really do. Then some gluta precursors don't help as much as others. From what I read, there are different types of cytokines, and certain substances lower certain cytokines better? Acai does lower cytokines. And maybe with the gluta, there are just certain things that my genetic makeup needs more than others. Either way, I am becoming a believer that CFS actually is curable.
    merylg likes this.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi CaCFS
    NAC can cause you a world of hurt, prevent your healing and make the damage far worse, making things feel better by damaging the nerves until they stop hurting. TMG can assist mb12, methylfolate, adb12 and carnitine and they all assit TMG. NAC can stop 100% of that.
  10. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Freddd - How does NAC prevent healing and cause damage, etc.? I thought NAC was a precursor to glutathione, I've been taking it quite awhile.

    Mary
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mary,

    It is a glutathione precursor, usually the one that is deficienct allowing it promptly form glutathione which then combines with active b12 that isn't nailed down in the body causing glutathionylcbl which is flushed from the body in the urine causing a no active b12 condition in the cell where needed then casueing the flushing of methylfolate via a mechnism called the "methyl trap". This is typically called "NAC detox response" when the symptoms occur. It is a matter of dose and maybe some other uncertain factors if it happens. It happens for enough people that it is a problem that can do serious damage in some cases. When healing startup occurs. All need glutathione appears to get made after methylation starts which happens in hours with mb12 and mfolate.


    TRANSLATION OF POPULAR DESCRIPTIVE TERMS TO PRACTICAL CORRECTIONS

    During “methylation” treatments for FMS, CFS, ME, MS. Cures or long term remissions can occur if the clues are understood and followed. Also suggestive of possible ways to detect impending MS, ALS and Parkinson’s 10-20 years before diagnosis and hopefully prevent.

    There are several popular nutritional treatments and variations for FMS, ME, CFIDS, CFS and several other syndrome names. There is at least one study being conducted for use in MS of exactly the same nutrients because people are having success on them. Many of the same nutritional supplements may be taken in the various programs and by people in general just trying to be healthy.



    Under the banner of “partial methylation block” theory there are a number of programs that center on several forms of cobalamin and of folate with additional vitamins, minerals and supplements. The number and completeness of those other items determine if it is the “full methylation protocol” or “simplified methylation protocol” (SMP). Under the banner of “Functional Deficiency Diseases” which include “active b12 deficiencies (4 deficiencies)” and “induced or paradoxical folate deficiency” there is the “Active b12 and folate protocol” (ABP).



    Whatever names these diseases are called they deal with a universe of symptoms that include up to 400 symptoms and signs, depending upon granularity (ie “peripheral neuropathy” encompasses dozens of possible symptoms and signs). They are in several main categories. They might be grouped as endothelial, epithelial, immune, neurological, blood, and other tissues. Or they might be classified as Skin, GI, lung, heart, veins, arteries, neurological –brain, neurological – cord, neurological - peripheral, neurological – other, neuro-psyc, blood, mood, personality etc.





    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



    Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



    The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



    The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

    More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



    Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

    Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

    Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

    B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



    Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..



    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.



    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation



    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.



    Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

    Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.





    IF taking Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey, all glutathione or glutathione precursors

    AND often sudden onset of several group 3 symptoms (“Detox”) maybe in a sequence, ie pain and inflammation the first day, cheilitis occurs on day 2-3 and IBS on day 5-6, plus any group 2 symptoms. Symptoms increase for weeks or months and can vary from mild to extreme.

    THEN Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency onset. B12 deficiencies follow in a week for methylb12 deficiency symptoms and several weeks for adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms. None of the other supplements can overcome the effects of glutathione or NAC.

    ELSE - all other conditions

    IF injecting b12

    AND itchy bumps and acne type lesions appear mostly on scalp and face but not exclusive

    THEN B12 was hydroxycbl OR photolytically deteriorated methylcbl OR cyanocbl, Lesions can be reversed in days with methylcbl injections not exposed to light at all.



    IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden widespread healing onset. This usually occurs as soon as methylation therapy starts widespread healing process by allowing DNA replications with methylb12 and methylfolate.



    IF adding adenosylcobalamin AND OR L-carnitine fumarate AND OR SAM-e to program (perhaps 50%)

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and /or muscle growth. This usually occurs when the person has experienced muscle shrinkage perhaps from decades of inactivity, as soon as these supplements step up mitochondria functioning.



    IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)

    AND on the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that anybody can use. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folinic acid

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is a less oxidized form of folate than folic acid.. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF an increase in dietary vegetable folate, “green drinks”, a garden feast

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



    IF starting or increasing folic acid AND OR starting or increasing folinic acid AND OR an increase in dietary vegetable folate

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency AND this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing



    IF starting or Methylfolate – Metafolin starting low and titrating

    AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

    AND OR usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

    THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency, a “donut hole” deficiency. The effects of folate deficiency/insufficiency comes in layers. Several tissue groups can be healing at the same time as other tissue groups are deteriorating. IBS and angular cheilitis can be worsening at the same time as muscles are healing or growing. There is a dose of Metafolin that can start more tissue formation than the same dose can sustain causing a Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency at the same time. In some people at least as they increase Metafolin the need for potassium increases approximately proportionately. The donut hole can be closed with total daily doses of Metafolin of about 15mg for many people.





    TWENTY FIRST CENTURY MYSTERY SYNDROME



    In the early 1940s a Nobel prize was awarded for folic acid. As we know now, folic acid is totally ineffective for 20% of the population due to genetic polymorphisms. Another 30% have very limited effectiveness from folic acid with only partial conversion to methylfolate. Even the 50% with the best conversion has limited amounts converted, an amount insufficient to maintain health for many people. Then, even worse, for some percentage of these people the inactive unconverted folic acid actually blocks methylfolate taken as a supplement from being effective. Again, illumination of this process is aided by the ready availability of Metafolin. So what do you call these people with a folate deficiency because they can’t utilize folic acid or in some cases, folinic acid, the vegetable folate form? Because it is genetic these folks are ill for a lifetime with this paradoxical folate deficiency. At some point they can and do get ill. You say “Paradoxical folate deficiency? What’s that, you never heard of it? Excuse me, you might know it better under the more familiar names of FMS or CFS or maybe MS. Since “folate deficiency” is a known item that has been dealt with by folic acid how can that be? Once again it is, mystery disease time, because the lack of 100% effectiveness of folic acid had been forgotten.



    Since the middle of the last century there has been an explosion of neurological and other disorders including fibromyalgia syndrome, Chronic fatigue syndrome, M.E., Parkinson’s disease, MS, ALS, Alzheimer’s, Autism, SupraNuclearPalsy. The mystery syndrome includes many other potentially named diseases and syndromes. What ties these together? Results of research studies. The specific studies were those that compared cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin levels to blood serum cobalamin levels. Some of them also measured and compared CSF MMA and Hcy to serum HCy and uMMA. In 1948 the Nobel Prize was awarded for a lab mistake, the mis-identification of cyanocobalamin as “B12” instead of the real B12s, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin.



    For all of the named conditions low CSF cobalamin level was found to be independent of blood serum cobalamin level. Further, for those measuring it, CSF HCY was independent of blood serum HCY and CSF MMA was independent from urine MMA.



    Research on cyanocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin since the 1950s have given the impression that “b12 deficiency” is one thing. Since the late 90s the ready availability of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin have allowed anybody interested to demonstrate and experience the differences between cyanocbl/hydroxycbl and the two active b12s, methylb12 and adenosylb12. As the official “b12” is cyanocbl the deficiencies are defined in terms of cyanocbl. On an internationally based list of b12 deficiency symptoms expanded for maximum detail added to by what methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin directly affect in humans, the problem becomes readily apparent; cyanocbl has no effectiveness in 1/3 of subjects in just about every study ever done considering only symptoms known to be affected by cyanocbl. Further 2/3 of the total symptoms affected by the two active cobalamins are completely unaffected by cyanocbl and hydroxycbl. Then somehow, physicians and researchers have forgotten about all these symptoms unaffected by cyanocbl/hydroxcbl. They have become “mystery syndromes”.



    A careful observation of the effectiveness of adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin makes it very clear, in combination with the CSF cobalamin level studies that there are 4 distinct b12 deficiency syndromes; CNS-adenosylcobalamin, CNS-methylcobalamin, body-adenosylcobalamin and body-methylcobalamin. In addition there are 4 forms of methylfolate deficiency; folic acid blocked methylfolate paradoxical folate deficiency, folinic acid blocked methylfolate paradoxical folate deficiency (vegetable food source folate included), Methylfolate triggered symptomatic methylfolate partial insufficiency and glutathione/NAC triggered paradoxical folate deficiency.



    These syndromes, FMS and CFS, respond promptly to methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylfolate. For those with anxiety the methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin must be titrated very slowly starting at perhaps 50mcg of sublingual b12 (literally a crumb) of each form on alternating days working up very slowly, below “alarm” level, until full equilibrium is established when no further increase in dose makes a difference. For those without anxiety a 1000mcg sublingual dose is an effective starting point. With the two 5 star effective brands, Jarrow Formulas and Enzymatic Therapy methylcobalamin, maintaining the tablet under the upper lip for 45-120 minutes causes absorption, tested in comparison with injections, in the 15-25% range typically (10-33% extremes). Source Naturals Dibencozide (adenosylcobalamin) 10mg has no folic acid in it and is acceptable in both absorption and effectiveness. About 80% of people starting these active b12 forms with methylfolate will demonstrate the start of healing with epithelial tissue healing and dropping/low potassium symptoms within about 3-4 days. Additional potassium may be needed from 400mg to 2000mg or more daily. I take 1200mg of potassium from potassium chloride as 600mg with each meal and 300-400mg as potassium gluconate tablets twice a day. If a person wakes to middle of the night spasms 500mg of potassium from potassium gluconate with a large glass of water will relieve them within 30 minutes generally. Lasix and other diuretics need to be taken into consideration. Paradoxical folate deficiency can alternate with low potassium. Edema is sometimes related to paradoxical folate deficiency and as the water is excreted the potassium may drop rapidly.



    glutathione and NAC triggered paradoxical folate deficiency

    Glutathione and NAC, both cause the same “detox” reaction with the group 3 symptoms. Hypothetically the glutathione combines with the methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin forming glutathionylcobalamin which then shows up in the urine in profusion in the next few hours. Without the active b12s in the cells the methylfolate is flushed from the cells (“methyl trap”) causing rapid onset of folate deficiency symptoms regardless of serum folate levels or dose of Metafolin. People who claim relief of symptoms from glutathione are reporting an effect. Those people who have anxiety as a symptom respond to both neurological methylcobalamin and methylfolate response and to ATP startup response with adenosylcobalamin as “unbearable” and greatly increasing their anxiety. The glutathione almost immediately relieves and stops methylcobalamin and methylfolate effects and rapidly decreasing adenosylcobalamin ATP effect. Those who have had pronounced healing from methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylfolate undergo immediate progressive return of deficiency symptoms, and large body wide increases in pain and inflammation. In six weeks continued usage of the glutathione can cause neurological damage with a noticeable increase in Sub-acute Combined Degeneration damage. Glutathione/NAC “relieves” neurological pain and discomfort by damaging the nerves to the point of numbness by combining with and removing essentially all active circulating mb12 and adb12 from the body starting in minutes..



    Strategy for overcoming paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency from vegetable food source folate

    A number of people have found the following method effective, with variations, at overcoming life-long paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency from vegetable food source folate.

    Wakeup – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    First meal – 4000mcg Metafolin with meal

    Mid-afternoon – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    Dinner – 4000mcg Metafolin with meal

    Bedtime – 2400mcg Metafolin on empty stomach

    And NO FOLIC ACID, NO FOLINIC ACID and modest high folate vegetable consumption. Vegetarians will have a problem. So the b-complex must be without any form of folate except methylfolate or Metafolin. Further, no glutathione, no NAC, no whey

  12. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Thanks so much, Freddd! I read your short explanation and will look at the rest of your post later. I have been taking metafolin for a year and a half now (together with methyl B12 and dibencozide), thanks to your posts, and in general feel better (although I still crash). But definitely have more energy overall. I did have to start taking potassium, which I've continued ever since, and am so glad you posted about hte need for potassium. I had experienced low potassium symptoms before starting your protocol, but didn't know what it was, but when I hit a brick wall some 2 or 3 days after starting the metafolin, it was very famliar, and potassium took care of it. My MCV has dropped from 97 to 90 (in that year and a half) and my potassium has gone up from 3.5 to 3.9, so still on the low side, but definitely better.

    I appreciate all your info -

    Mary
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    OOPS - Consider previous references to Jarrow mb12 to be null and void. There is now only 1 5 star mb12 I know of.
  14. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Thanks, Fredd, for that very thorough summary. I think I'm going to add TMG to your B12 protocol, see if it makes a difference.
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Seattle
    It may also be helping due to it's methylation properties, especially it's ability to lower s-adenylhomocysteine (SAH), which I believe Rich said was almost always high on the Methylation panel tests, and is a more accurate measure of cardiovascular and other problems. (Mine was high...and I just found out about the link to TMG yesterday...so will be ordering some asap.)

    Here's a link to a study on autistic kids, that showed that TMG, plus folinic, plus b12 helped normalize s-adenylhomocysteine levels. As you probably know, Rich and others consider CFS/ME to be an autism-spectrum disorder...

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1611.full

    "Results: Relative to the control children, the children with autism had significantly lower baseline plasma concentrations of methionine, SAM, homocysteine, cystathionine, cysteine, and total glutathione and significantly higher concentrations of SAH, adenosine, and oxidized glutathione. This metabolic profile is consistent with impaired capacity for methylation (significantly lower ratio of SAM to SAH) and increased oxidative stress (significantly lower redox ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione) in children with autism. The intervention trial was effective in normalizing the metabolic imbalance in the autistic children."
    Lou likes this.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dan,

    As you probably know, Rich and others consider CFS/ME to be an autism-spectrum disorder...


    My only disagreement with that is that it puts the cart in front of the result. I consider austim spectrum disorders to be CNS DEADLOCK QUARTET spectrum disorders including ME, FMS, CFS, Parkinson't, MS, Autism, Supra nuclear palsy, ALS and Alzheimers. I suspect that the autism spectrum includes the deficiencies during gestation and early brain development (hypothesis). I have read much on this, interacted with some children and observed the use of mb12, adb12 and methylfolate, all favorable though highly variable. There are some additional missing factors and possibly uncorrectable damage. My daughter looked like she was going to be autistic but with 10 years of intensive work by my very dedicated ex wife she ended up developing reasonably normally and graduating from possibly the top art college in the country with a BFA. She responded extremely strongly to mb12, and needed adb12 every day instead of once a week like me. I already have plans of how to design the database for the autism data collection and analysis.

    For me TMG was important in the beginning but now makes no difference in maintenance. However, I will be doing a startup on it again in 6 months to see if it is a slow changer. However, is on my 1st tier of possibly critical cofactors,

    The reason I say "put's the cart before the horse" is because there are, according to some researchers at least 600 separate biochemical issues that arise because of mb12/adb12/methylfolate/LCF/Alcar Deadlock Quartet. To chase each of those down and correct them independently of these various and other nutrients is likely impossible but if they were all available, 600 drugs a day at $100-1000/month each is unmanageable. . Because these things are each a piece in long strings of reactions everything changes with each one you fix. It's like hunting will-o-wisp fairies with a BB gun. Fixing the basics that can be fixed will then make more clear what remains.


    DISCLAIMER

    I am a self taught systems analyst and consultant. I am not credentialed, certified or licensed to do anything besides drive a car. I have been disabled by the disease processes being discussed and affecting neurology in a multitude of ways for 10 years and impaired in a variety of ways and levels for 54 years before that. Everything I say is my opinion, synthesis, understanding or otherwise of my own creation except direct attributed quotes. Approximate paraphrases are also my interpretation of what I have read. All of this is at best my data analysis, understanding, synthesis and hypotheses and not to be construed as medical advice. I am not responsible for anything you do with any information provided in any way. Anything you do is your own responsibility and at your own risk. There are no published peer reviewed studies backing up my opinions or statements, except the incidental ones quoted or implicit in my synthesis or understanding, and then only in so far any reading of such papers may confer. Your interpretations, actions and variations of what I say are strictly at your own risk.



    .
  17. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Sydney
    Cacfs, I found this thread after seeing an adhd post about tmg improving catecholamines. I am going to try dosing real low as it does affect me sleeping. I also do well on dopa mucuna. After a stressful incident I started going downhill a lot. I stopped the same to try and sleep and work other things. L-methionine is less used as its sulphur based. I have relatively improved my reactions to environmental allergies by lowering my sulphur intake and using spargha (asparagus based sulphur detox).

    As I've been on snris which have made some stuff worse I'm looking at something to boost my dopamine in a better way than dopa mucuna, As my counsellor explained, the purpose of the adhd medication is to activate the frontal cortex of the brain as it helps to regulate the rest of the brain. Its not an ideal solution but I'm going to try low dose ritalin.

    Happpy to hear its working for you. I like now foods but think they high dose supplements, I get benefit from 1/3rd tmg tab. Something to keep in mind.

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