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tip for anyone doing chelation and having a hard time

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Catseye, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. LargeRBcells

    LargeRBcells

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    Hi everyone,

    For those who did or still in the process of doing chelation, have you ever needed to stop working because of the symptoms of liver detox and others. If you had to remove mercury fillings and did chelation after, how did it go? Can you keep working?
  2. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    It will vary from person to person and the dosage you use. The Cutler protocol is a 3 day one so, assuming a normal work week, you could start Friday morning and finish Sunday night. It's a bit hard to answer though as there are so many variables.
  3. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    My lead level is going down and after 5 more edta sessions (or 3 weeks from now) I will begin the mercury chelator - IV DMPS. It's probably going to be bad and I will probably only be able to do one session every week if I'm lucky. I started on the supplements for the mercury challenge test yesterday. So in 10 days I will do the mercury test and get my reference point to begin eliminating mercury. The doc said I will never be able to remove all the lead, that it's too widespread, and we just want it down enough so mercury will come out. If the lead is too high, he said, mercury will not come out.

    The DMPS is supposed to remove the merc "from the neck down" as he put it, then after it reaches an acceptable level, then we use IV DMSA to remove the merc in the brain. He said removing the merc is going to make me sick and depressed and we'll just have to see how bad it's going to be. No problem, I've already been through hell and I'm ready for this no matter how brutal it's going to be.

    It's all going to be up to my liver now but I'm armed with the ACV cocktail and a couple of really excellent liver cleanse supplements that I've stayed with after trying at least a dozen different ones.
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I don't even know where to begin with what your doc has told you. There are many factual inaccuracies in the above passage and this practitioner clearly doesn't have a good understanding of the science behind the chelation agents and process. Not to mention the fact that the expected side effects are totally unacceptable. I wouldn't be surprised if you had some gains from the EDTA chelation, but the IV DMPS and DMSA is strongly contraindicated. Please don't do it.
  5. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    I've done my homework, I'm going to do it. Would you mind pointing out the factual inaccuracies?
  6. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Any practitioner making the purported statements you mentioned, has the potential to do harm. I will respond as I am able.

    1. Fact: DMSA is not an effective chelator of Hg from the brain.


    Aposhian, H.V., Morgan, D.L., Queen, H.L., Maiorino, R.M.,
    Aposhian, M.M., 2003. Vitamin C, glutathione, or lipoic acid did
    not decrease brain or kidney mercury in rats exposed to mercury
    vapor. J. Toxicol. Clin. Toxicol. 41, 339347.

    Buchet, J.P., Lauwerys, R.R., 1989. Influence of 2,3-
    dimercaptopropane-1-sulfonate and dimercaptosuccinic acid on
    the mobilization of mercury from tissues of rats pretreated with
    mercuric chloride, phenylmercury acetate or mercury vapors.
    Toxicology 54, 323333

    George, G.N., Prince, R.C., Gailer, J., Buttigieg, G.A., Denton, M.B.,
    Harris, H.H., Pickering, I.J., 2004. Mercury binding to the chelation
    therapy agentsDMSAandDMPSand the rational design of custom
    chelators for mercury. Chem. Res. Toxicol. 17, 9991006.
  7. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    The first article is about a study on rats where they removed the brain and kidneys and looked for mercury after they were poisoned and treated. I have no idea how this is relevant because the article doesn't say enough to make sense. How did they know the amount of mercury in the rat's brain before they cut it open? It was merely a 7 day treatment and they don't even say if it was oral or injection. It has nothing to do with chronic, long term exposure and poisoning - it implies a deliberate acute poisoning, nothing comparable to what we have. And if you look at the article I cited below, you'll see that one of the guys whose name is on this article is listed on another paper saying DMSA does accelerate mercury elimination from the brain.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870874


    The second article doesn't explain why they say the chelators are inefficient at removing mercury from the brain. They don't say if it was oral or injectable administration of the chelators and I still don't see how a pretreated, mercury poisoned rat is comparable to us.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2539660


    The third article doesn't explain anything, either. They say neither DMSA nor DMPS forms a true chelate complex with mercuric ions but so what? They say these drugs should be considered "suboptimal" but if they just concluded they don't form a true chelate complex, then why are they only "suboptimal" rather than "completely ineffective"? Like the first two articles you listed, it doesn't make sense.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15310232


    Here's a paper about DMSA:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._yN_ziAAmnG35T29Q&sig2=poBHiF6Hal58lRC8akxUgQ


    Aposhian, one of the names listed in the first article, is also a name on a paper entitled "DMSA and DMPS, Water Soluble Antidotes for Heavy Metal Poisoning" where he quotes "DMSA accelerated Hg elimination from the brain, but DMPS had no effect." And "The mercury content of the kidney, liver, and brain of mice or guinea pigs exposed to MeHgBr was decreased by posttreatment with DMSA (6). These experiments were extended (47) to show that smaller amounts of DMSA could be used, greater delay before treatment was possible, and DMSA was effective po. In addition, DMSA was shown to be four times more effective than D-pen for increasing the urinary excretion of mercury. Rats poisoned with MeHg preferred to drink water containing DMSA (2.5 mg/ml) rather than water without it "."


    I'm not going to go on and list a bunch of sites that say DMSA crosses the BBB because what's the point? I'm trusting the word of a doctor with 20+ years of firsthand experience rather than a google educated guess. I will know for sure when I do it what it will do. If I can eventually stop taking the ADH hormone at night and stay off it, and my hormones and everything else normalizes, then I'll know the DMSA cleared mercury from my brain.

    As for all the bad side effects I've read about, I think most of them happened because people started chelation without being in the proper condition to do it. People need a CDSA test to make sure the liver and intestines are in good enough shape. For instance, any attempt at chelation by a person who has leaky gut syndrome will result in mercury redistribution instead of elimination and is guaranteed to mess them up badly. And you can have leaky gut syndrome with dysbiosis and not know it - the symptoms can be vague and not even point to the GI tract as a source of the problem. That's what happened to me. It took me 4 years to completely get over leaky gut with a very aggressive diet and supplement plan. I've been preparing for chelation literally for years.
  8. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I am far from an expert, but I believe the following to be true.

    "And if you look at the article I cited below, you'll see that one of the guys whose name is on this article is listed on another paper saying DMSA does accelerate mercury elimination from the brain."

    I gather, you reached these conclusions based on the abstracts and not the full text articles. I cited the Aposhian article because it is typically cited as the basis for the argument that DMSA does chelate Hg from the brain. The criticism of this study relates to extension of this rat/mice research to humans. Humans and rats have dissimilar blood brain barriers. As I recall, they are particularly different with respect to permeability for hydrophilic compounds. DMSA (and DMPS) are water soluble substances (hydrophilic) whereas lipoic acid is lipophilic. Lipophilic substances in humans cross the blood brain barrier, hydrophilic substances, except under very limited circumstances, do not.

    "How did they know the amount of mercury in the rat's brain before they cut it open?"

    Rats born in a lab with no exposure to Hg, multiple prior generations can be euthanized and autopsies done to assure there was no exposure from maternal sources.

    "It was merely a 7 day treatment and they don't even say if it was oral or injection. It has nothing to do with chronic, long term exposure and poisoning - it implies a deliberate acute poisoning, nothing comparable to what we have."

    I was not arguing that the exposures were similar, this was merely cited as a part of a discussion about the kinetics of DMSA.

    "I'm not going to go on and list a bunch of sites that say DMSA crosses the BBB because what's the point? I'm trusting the word of a doctor with 20+ years of firsthand experience rather than a google educated guess."

    Unfortunately there are many longstanding misconceptions about chelation, in large part because there is a scarcity of research, and chelation is not mainstream and is largely left to the domain of CAM. References published in the last 5 years corroborate my assertion about DMSA. I would be happy to provide additional sources, but you don't seem too interested. At the very least, I would encourage you to participate in one of the adult metal chelation forums where the collective wisdom of thousands of similar patients is shared.

    "I will know for sure when I do it what it will do. If I can eventually stop taking the ADH hormone at night and stay off it, and my hormones and everything else normalizes, then I'll know the DMSA cleared mercury from my brain."

    I sincerely hope this does happen for you, and I think regardless of any effect on the brain, removing heavy metals from the intracellular spaces can have some positive effect on these problems, which most likely does not relate solely to brain Hg. Also, I do think you will benefit from working so diligently to fix the intestinal permeability. I definitely experience some adverse symptoms from enterohepatic recirculation, although I cannot honestly say what is being reabsorbed and causing these mostly CNS side effects. This route of elimination, however, is principally related to organic mercury not inorganic mercury, and DMSA, for example, principally involves excretion through urine not bile. There is much more to the equation than the status of your intestinal barrier, and many of these excretory bottlenecks don't improve until the metal comes out.

    Wishing you the best!














  9. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I did a dmsa challenge test a while ago. Before I did it, I mentioned to my dr that I was concerned that this might cause mobilisation of mercury of which I had read on the internet. She confirmed to me that DMSA only binds to extracellular mercury and it can't go inside any body organs.
    I subsequently read Andy Cutler's book and there are plenty of references in there about what DMSA can or can't do. He suggests that only ALA can chelate mercury from inside organs.
    There is also some info on the frequent chelation yahoo group.
  10. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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  11. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    About the rats, you can't measure how much mercury is in a living brain. So how do they know if mercury was moved out of the brain or not? No, I did not read the full text. Like you said, there are many longstanding misconceptions about chelation, in large part because there is a scarcity of research, and chelation is not mainstream. And, apparently, some conclusions based on studies are in direct contradiction of others. I am going to be my own study. That's why I'm posting about it. Otherwise, why bother?

    ADH is secreted from the pituitary. I am fairly certain I've stopped making it because mercury has invaded the pituitary. So if I am able to quit taking it after starting the DMSA, I think it will be pretty safe to say that the DMSA removed mercury from my brain.

    I will have my first DMPS IV on Thursday, for the mercury challenge test. I have already taken DMPS orally so I know I'm not allergic and won't have any immediate reaction.

    I have looked around on other chelation boards but I haven't come across people who have prepared for it as diligently as I have and who are coddling their livers as they do it.

    I'm willing to risk some bad side effects rather than stay like this.
  12. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    HI Catseye,

    THanks for this thread.

    Are you taking any other chelators other than the magnesium EDTA IV? I'm high in lead, but sensitive to chelators. I take chlorella and my whole GI system locks up. It takes awhile to get that going again by supplementing minerals and stuff.

    You mentioned having a sensitive stomach. I have gastritis or something going on that is driving me bonkers. Did you have stomach pain, and if so, has that eased up with chelating?

    Thanks
    Mark
  13. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    I never had any stomach pain or any real GI symptoms. I eventually figured out I had leaky gut and confirmed it with tests.

    I had tried chelation with chlorella and some other supplements but every time I tried it, I couldn't take it. It wasn't until I used the IVs that it was tolerable.

    I've been using mag edta only so far, but I start my first DMPS IV tomorrow morning. It's for a mercury challenge test. After 3 more edta sessions, then I can start regularly on the DMPS. So I'll do DMPS tomorrow, then back to edta for the next 2 weeks, then I start DMPS regularly until mercury comes way down. Then it's time for DMSA. I think I mentioned DMSA would be an IV but it isn't, it's going to be in pill form.

    Along with the edta, I wasn't using any other chelators, but since I'm starting the DMPS soon, the doc now has me on chlorella, garlic, glutathione and DMG to help move the mercury - I'm supposed to stay on these for a while. I've been on them for 9 days so far and I do seem a little bit more tired but I'm tolerating them well. It's not a lot of chlorella, just 3 grams once a day.

    If you have a decent doc who can interpret a CDSA, that will tell you about your guts and liver and probably give you an idea of what's going on in your stomach.
  14. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    Did my DMPS IV this morning and had no bad effects - not even mildly annoying. So it wasn't anything like the big, bad boogeyman that I have heard so much about!
  15. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    Chelation is going extremely well. I just bought a treadmill!

    Mercury challenge test showed a level of 13. Doc said 12 is severely toxic. Guess that explains everything.

    I'm still experiencing slow, steady improvement. Actually, the improvement seems quicker and more significant from the DMPS compared to the EDTA.

    I've done 5 sessions of DMPS so far, I'll do five more sessions and then retest. I've been doing it weekly but missed 2 weeks because of a cold. The doc said not to do it if you're sick.

    I also hear medicare has started paying for some people's sessions. If you're on disability and can't afford it otherwise, now is the time to get a consultation and get prepared for the possibility that they will start covering it regularly for everyone with high lead levels. Probably all of us have high lead.
  16. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    I'm getting some real relief from DMPS, especially with my adrenals. It's pretty obvious to me now that mercury has been the problem all along. I hope people are not still filling their kids' mouths full of mercury.
  17. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Great to hear!
  18. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    I got the results from my latest mercury test, my level has dropped from a 13 to a 5 after 12 sessions of DMPS. I am supposed to do another 3 sessions and then I move on to DMSA pills to remove mercury from the brain.
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been thinking about doing chelation, but I think body might be too weak now. I have a question about liver and kidneys. I'm not sure, but I think my doctor tested my liver and kidneys a few years ago and the tests came back normal. I have my charts, but I don't know what the tests are called. Does this mean I won't have problems with my liver and/or kidneys if I try chelation?
  20. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

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    Probably not - and if you see a qualified toxicologist, he should be able to screen you properly and make sure you won't have problems. Throughout the whole chelation process I have been monitored for kidney issues with weekly urine tests and occasional blood tests. I am eating healthy and taking a lot of supplements to aid the chelation process. You will probably be starting with EDTA to remove lead (which has to come out before mercury) and they start you off at a lower dosage to see if you can take it. I would make sure to take some herbal liver supplements and drink lots of water on the day of chelation. If I don't do both of these then I don't feel good. And be ready to be in it for the long haul. I've been at it for over a year and a half already and I'm still not done. It's working, it's just a very slow process. Try to selects a toxicologist who has been doing this a long time, like at least 15 years or so. You can pm me if you want to know more details.
    helen1 and Lotus97 like this.

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