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Tingling when absorbing B12, what does this mean?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Methhead81, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Here are the brands I am using for B12 and Folate.

    http://uk.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-Lemon-Flavor-1000-mcg-100-Lozenges/129

    http://uk.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Optimized-Folate-1000-mcg-100-Veggie-Tabs/63828

    (I understand I might have started too high in regards to the folate)

    In regards to my condition, I have stabilised in the last few months. No worsening has really occurred and I believe I am almost near the end in regards to figuring out what's wrong with me (was exposed to a lot of Mercury in my life time, and possible viral bacterial issues). I tried using Fredd's Protocol a few months back, but didn't go far out of fear of possibly doing it wrong and making my issues worse or something (I hear talk of permanent neurological damage, which sounds extreme). I have been doing Andy Cutler Protocol for a few months but haven't really gotten very far into it (only started using ALA a week or two ago). I decided to try B12 and Folate out again to see if it may help my symptoms somewhat.

    It MAY have, noticed my reading ability has been a little better since I started, though I noticed some issues with my right hand coordination when typing, that has gotten better today though.

    It's however not that I am concerned about, what I am concerned about is how I feel when absorbing the B12 under my lip.

    When I am absorbing the vitamin, this is what I tend to experience:

    1. Tingling around various parts of my body, kind of like an itch (not a symptom I normally experience to an extreme degree)

    2. Itchy sensation around tongue and thyroid area

    3. Sometimes a bit more revved up.

    4. Strange headaches (like a burning)

    This isn't really much, but what does this mean?

    Potassium deficiency, or something wrong with how I take folate?

    I took the folate whenever pretty much, I later read that taking it a few minutes before the B12 apparently is a better idea.

    I am going to taper off the B12 and Folate and try it again after getting some Dibenzocide to see if that prevents the tingling. Could someone who is more knowledgeable and intelligent than me explain what this could imply and should I be worried my brain will be turned to mush?

    I will start with lower doses of Folate next time, I just don't want to mess myself up while my body still has a chance of healing from all this (it heals fast if given the right conditions).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    It's possible the B12 is awakening nerves, giving you the tingling. It's unclear to me whether the jarrow B12 is the best type. Enzymatic Therapies 1mg and Country Life 5mg are what I've used. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Great that you've stabilised.
     
    Methhead81 likes this.
  3. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    What's getting rather annoying is that some say that the initial negative symptoms are due to it working on a body that has been deficient in it for so long, but other say it's due to a deficiency (folate or something else) that will result in "permanent irreversible damage" if not taken properly.

    I am getting the Dibencozide to lessen the chances of that (helps it get into the cells more apparently), and I heard that some say you should use B12 alone for a few days first before adding the Folate in. Yet I keep hearing that using B12 will use up Folate and induce a deficiency...this is mighty confusing.

    I haven't used either long enough to be sure it's benefiting me, it may have but I recently came off an aborted chelation round where I used ALA and DMPS, so it might have been the result of Hg being cleared from the brain slightly.
     
  4. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    tingly or hot flush when taking b vitamin can indicate that the person is low and hence needing it. i was taught that when studying nutrition at collage so we were told to keep prescribing it if that was happening. the more deficient person is, the stronger this reaction may be.
    .
     
  5. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I did some research last night, and I think I might be in the midst of a Methyl Trap.

    My symptoms got way worse last year after I started ingesting high amounts of Folic Acid from foods (while on an anti-candida diet). Some symptoms got better, while others got worse. I was experiencing a worsening of depression as well as massive brain fog (dementia levels), also numbness on my right thigh and just a general worsening of many symptoms.

    This stabilised once I went off that diet and started supplementing potassium.

    According to this post: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-untrap-a-methyl-trap.28218/page-2

    This is how I can get out of a Methyl Trap. If anyone has more up to date info on how to get out of this state, please let me know since I will order the required supplements for this next month.

    I am not interested in being told I will die of congestive heart failure or the symptoms (I know the symptoms of a Methyl Trap), I just would like to know how to address this issue in the right way.

    I experienced a bout of anxiety last night (First episode like this in a while) and it went down after I drank some Potassium Gluconate. I also experienced a decrease in depressive symptoms along with improved reading ability since I began to supplement with B12 and Methylfolate again.

    The plan for now is to lay off these two supplements, and get some Dibencozide and Carnitine Fumerate, and then try again next month.

    I am not as severely ill as some of the people on this site, I just don't want to be like some people who do this protocol and get messed up because they didn't take the right cofactors or were unaware of methyltrapping or paradoxical folate deficiencies.
     
  6. BCE

    BCE

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    So, sadly I am one of those peole who got messed up, as you say. I didn't want to, and didn't realize that was a risk. A doctor gave me 1000mcg methylfolate and 5000mcg methylcobalamin daily, and said it had no side effects. I didn't really know about all this MTHFR rabbit hole, I just thought I was correcting a deficiency. I developed neurological and psychiatric symptoms on this protocol and they worsened when I stopped. It was intolerable. I have what must be SCD and extensive nerve damage from it, which happened almost overnight, when I had too many drinks a few weeks after stopping the protocol and lost most of my feeling and memory for the next two years.

    I still don't understand methyltrapping or paradoxical folate deficiency. But, I have had some neuropathy improvement over a year on cyanocobalamin injections. They don't last long, but they are something.

    If you're not as ill as some, and you don't want to make yourself worse, why not keep the doses real low or try hydroxocobalamin? Why not get folate from foods?

    If I had to do it over, I'd do some moderate supplementation with pure hydroxocobalamin, and work hard on gut health through diet change, and be happy with it. Gut health is key to getting b12. If that didn't work, then I'd try the methylcobalamin. It seems to me nearly impossible to balance the body through high dose supplementation- we're just so finely tuned.

    Of course I could be wrong, completely wrong.
     
  7. BCE

    BCE

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    It doesn't indicate that a person is overloaded in B12 and has more than they can use at that time?

    Was this a naturopathic college? I'm curious.
     
  8. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Regardless, please keep this thread on topic in regards to my situation, as I am on here asking for help.

    Tania, go ahead and reply, but don't stray off topic. I see this a lot on this forum and I don't really want to waste precious time if I am experiencing a Methyl Block or something akin to that.

    I am laying off the B12 until I get other supporting supplements to ensure that I don't mess this up like many people seem to do.

    In response to BCE, I probably did over do the B12. I would love someone who knows a lot about B12 and Folate symptoms to chime in, as that would be better than someone who was only told that B12 causes tingling if you need it.

    Misinformation can be very damaging, look at those who got messed up by using Cilantro/Coriander to chelate Mercury.
     
    stridor likes this.
  9. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I also experienced a mild niacin type flush the other day when I was taking the B12, only the redness only occurred around my ears and the back of the neck.

    The plan right now, is to wait for Carnitine Fumerate and Dibencozide (with Potassium Gluconate) and experiment with the B12 and Folate again to see what happens.

    To someone who knows a lot about these issues, is this plan perfectly doable or am I missing a cofactor? I am taking the other recommended minerals and such for this, I just REALLY don't want to mess myself up further because someone didn't tell me about a vital piece of information.

    (Excuse me if I seem angry, I just want to get out of this mess sooner rather than later).

    I believe the high folic acid diet I was on may have put me in a deep methyl trap (which has stabilised since I stopped eating so much folic acid) and I want to get out of it without potentially making the issue worse.
     
  10. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    EDIT: After reading your ratio, it sounds like you might have needed more Folate in comparison to the B12, that might be why it messed you up as badly as it did. Please message Fredd or someone else regarding that, as it might allow you to reverse what happened to you.

    My original message follows, I apologize for my bad attitude, it's not you but you may want to keep some of what I say in mind when giving advice in the future:

    I am so sorry to hear that, and I am glad I stopped after a day or two of experimenting.

    When you say folate from foods, I may have said that I believe that my body can't convert folic acid to folate naturally, so I should try to avoid folic acid for this very reason. I don't really understand how you missed me saying that.

    "Be Happy with it", I was addressing GUT when I was eating HIGH FOLIC ACID foods! And it made me worse. I stopped getting worse after I reduced the folic acid.

    Taking MethylB12 and Dibencozide should suffice in place of HydroxB12, the issue here is I need someone (who knows how to do this SAFELY) to advise on what I should do.

    That is all, and I don't know why that's so hard to ask for. Should I try again but at lower doses? Wait for other supplements before trying again? Should I take Folate in case I actually do have a paradoxical folate deficiency?

    I don't need to be told to address GUT (you mean digestive system) since I will do that if I so desire. I need to be told what is the best course of action to address these methylation issues.

    I was on a low sugar and low carb diet, eating vegetables high on folate (which I may or may not be able to convert properly), I don't understand what is more healthy than that. I just find that people's initial reflex on here is to tell someone to address diet, when I am asking for information on B12 and Folate.

    I apologize for my bad attitude, I just don't want to waste time.

    NOTE: I find being told to change my diet very unnecessary seeing as I am actually trying to figure out a kind of diet that suits me. The issue is eating "healthily" can actually make a problem worse in some cases, hence why I find being told to address digestive system issues to be incredibly aggravating. I ate a healthy diet of Green vegetables and no sugar for a while, and it made me a lot worse in the end, I go back to eating the No No foods, and my symptoms stopped getting worse.

    I will sort these issues out carefully. I just need some advice from those who know more about how to safely dose B12 and Folate, without being preached about diet (Which I am going to address carefully) or intestinal absorption (which from experience is most likely adequate, not perfect but adequate).
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  11. BCE

    BCE

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    When I say folate from foods, I mean folate from foods, not folic acid. I didn't miss you saying you didn't think you could process folic acid.

    I'm not ordering you to "be happy with it". I'm saying that's what I would have rather done, is take it easy with a small amount of hydroxocobalamin and get my absorption up instead of trying to take a lot of supplements. My absorption is slowly but steadily improving, and I would rather rely on that than suffer from the methylated vitamins. It's just one perspective.

    When I say addressing the gut I mean making whatever changes an individual needs to improve absorption. If you say you're addressing gut health with high folic acid foods and it made you worse, well that's not what I'm advocating.

    I don't know how to take Methylb12 and dibencozide safely. There really is no guarantee that you will be able to take them safely, is there? My perspective is, given the risks, what's worth it?

    Digestive issues take a long time to work out, but perhaps done properly, they can prevent or limit the need to take potentially destabilizing supplements. I'm not telling you what to do, it's just a suggestion.

    A "healthy" diet does not just mean low sugar/high folate vegetables, it means whatever's right for you. If a certain "healthy" diet makes you worse, then it's not healthy for you is it? I'm not insisting on anything.

    Besides, trying to improve your nutrient absorption may be a real key to avoiding side effects, since you'll be better able to absorb cofactors from foods, or even from your supplements.

    I don't think I was preaching just because I have a different approach, but forget I said anything if you truly are offended.

    Keep in mind I said I could be entirely wrong, too.
     
  12. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I am sorry, what foods are high in "FOLATE" and not "Folic" or "Folinic"?

    The issue is when someone says "healthy diet", I get the impression it's just green vegetables and non processed foods (though this is universally unhealthy for obvious reasons). And what gave you the impression that this was an issue for me?

    And I have heard bad things about hydroxocobalamin too. The issue here is neither of use seem to know how to do this safely and properly. You are right these supplements can be destablising, IF you take too high a dose without knowing what you are getting yourself into.

    The issue in your case is that you started at too high a dose in the first place. So your projecting your bad experience onto me. I only experimented with it for around a day or two before I decided to stop in the event something like your case was to occur. If I try it again (will do eventually), I will start off low and gradually increase.

    I posted here because I wanted someone with genuine experience and knowledge on these issues to give me advice on what to do, but it appears none of the people with that knowledge want to really comment.

    At least we have @caledonia to thank for her awesome .pdf files on this. I will just have to figure it out myself with more caution next time.
     
  13. BCE

    BCE

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    Clearly whole foods like vegetables or legumes and turkey are high in folate, and processed foods would have the folic acid. That doesn't mean I'm advocating a vegan diet or anything extreme.

    What I'm saying amounts to this: it seems to me that taking supplements without addressing any malabsorption issues is like refilling a leaking bucket. Except the contents of the bucket are extremely complex, and there's so much potential to go wrong, so why not try repairing the bucket first?

    It seems my experiences do not count to you and strangely anger you.
     
  14. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    They anger me, not your experiences persay, but because I find that everytime (like 9 out of 10 times) I end up having an argument about something like this and not really getting the answer (or anything close to it) that I want.

    It's not that your experience doesn't count for me (though it's not really that similar, since I stopped as I was well aware of the risks), I just get a bit sick of being preached to about diet.

    And by vegetables, are you referring to Broccoli? That is what I ate in spades before I had to stop. And how do I even know the "bucket" is fixed?

    How about this. I once ran low on potassium in my body, I was having potassium deficiency symptoms. Then I took a potassium tablet, and within a minute or so my body calmed down. My body absorbed it quite quickly.

    This was a few months ago, and I recall I was still eating the high folate foods (Which you are advising me to eat). It appeared that the high folate foods (at first I thought it was sulfur, but recent sulfur foods I ate which are not high in folic acid failed to simulate the exact same response, though I need to avoid sulfur) was inducing strange symptoms. This isn't the only time I had bad experiences when restricting my diet to vegetables, I had a bad episode in 2013 VERY similar to what I experienced (with low potassium symptoms) that stopped once I began to eat less foods high in folic acid.

    Listen, what I am going to do is focus on chelation for the next few weeks, and then when I move to a new house I will experiment with B12 and Folate again, this time with caution in mind and making sure I am not going to end up messed up. It's obvious the reason you got so badly hurt was because the dose he made you take was WAAAAAYYY too high
     
  15. BCE

    BCE

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    I'm not trying to preach to anyone about diet, just raising the possibility that food sources may be sufficient and lower risk. I'm not advocating a diet of ONLY high folate vegetables, but something mixed in moderation.

    You know best of folate foods bother you. I think you know digestion is doing well when you don't have bloating, diarrhea, constipation, reflux, and have good gut motility and normal stools.

    Good luck with whatever you try.
     
  16. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I do have digestive system issues, I think they can be addressed with some kind of special diet, it's the folic acid that's the issue here (and adrenal issues, not major fatigue but they can be stressed easily).

    I still don't know if you understand that if my body can't convert natural folate to L-Methylfolate in the body, upping folate from diet will not help at all, and will possibly make the issue worse.

    I need a Nutreval Test done to see what my mineral and vitamin status is, that way I can probably go ahead with this safely with less of a risk of making the problem much worse.
     

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