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Thyroid Meds Need Sufficient Cortisol.

Discussion in 'Thyroid Dysfunction' started by Ema, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3108000

    Eur J Clin Invest. 1987 Apr;17(2):106-10.
    Altered interaction between triiodothyronine and its nuclear receptors in absence of cortisol: a proposed mechanism for increased thyrotropin secretion in corticosteroid deficiency states.
    De Nayer P, Dozin B, Vandeput Y, Bottazzo FC, Crabbe J.
    Abstract
    Thyroid hormones occasionally appear less effective when administered alone to patients with panhypopituitarism, and manifestations suggestive of hypothyroidism have been reported in patients suffering from untreated Addison's disease.

    In the latter condition, thyrotropin secretion is increased: this occurs already after as little as 2 days of temporary withdrawal of therapy with substitution doses of corticosteroids while circulating levels of thyroid hormones remain within normal limits.

    Therefore, a possible role of cortisol in interaction between triiodothyronine and its nuclear receptors was examined at the level of circulating lymphocytes obtained from patients with primary or secondary adrenocortical failure.

    The affinity of these receptors was found to be decreased, by more than 50% on average, in the absence of cortisol treatments. This change was promptly corrected upon resumption of therapy. The number of binding sites was not significantly modified. The influence of cortisol on thyroid hormone receptors discussed here might account for the clinical observations mentioned above.
     
    Helen and SOC like this.
  2. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I wonder if any more recent studies nave been done to confirm the findings in 1987. Maybe that is why I see no benefit, yet, with armour thyroid, could be the low dose also.

    in the past I have had low serum and saliva cortisol, except from genova diagnostics, for some reason yheir tedt indicated my cortisol was alwasys in range. Odd since another cortisol saliva test I did 4 days earlier with a different lab showed cortisol out of range 3 out of the 4 time perods tested. This oyher lab results also seemed more in line with what I was experiencing.
     
  3. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    This has been known for years by most endocrinologists and thyroid specialists....
     
  4. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    How about using the C3TM method?

    I have come across an observation by someone who posted on STTM, that adrenal fatigue is really adrenal gland hypothyroidism.

    Think about it, without sufficient t3, the adrenal glands won't function properly, and begin to malfunction and possibly not release sufficient amounts of cortisol and other corticosteroids. So the ACTH signal may be sufficient, but the adrenal glands just can't respond adequately. This would explain why non-addisons adrenal fatigue is so hard to pinpoint. It would even support the arguments of those who don't believe in adrenal fatigue, sort of. The glands aren't "too tired" and don't have inadequate hormones, rather, they don't have enough energy from T3 to function properly. It would simultaneously support the argument of AF'ers, that the glands are fatigued--they lack T3.

    The C3TM method is a method where by you set your alarm clock to wake up a few hours before you usually wake up, generally when cortisol is starting to fire up. You take a dose of t3 or NDT, and it is able to make it into the cells because you are actually producing cortisol at this point. This could theoretically heal the glands, giving them t3, and allowing them to get back in rhythm, which would also support the thyroid at the same time, thus fixing all problems at once.
     
    maryb likes this.
  5. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    @drob31, thanks for that post. I am going to look into C3TM.

    My cortisol is generally lowish, it would be nice if circadian dosing of my T3 would help bring it up to normal. My MD/ND had said that low dose T3 would help bring up adrenal function, but that too much T3 would tank weak adrenals.
     
  6. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Have you had a cortisol saliva test done? If so, what were your results?
     
  7. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    I did have one done - overall cortisol is a bit low, it seems to tank a bit during the day, and then it's a bit high at night. Fortunately it's not severely dysfunctional.

    AM cortisol this year is around 15, last year it was at 12 so it had come up before I started on T3.

    ETA: I take Enz. Therapy adrenal cortex + Gaia adrenal herbs in the AM.
     
  8. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Is that AM blood cortisol, or saliva cortisol?
     
  9. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    AM cortisols were taken with serum, and I did a full diurnal salivary test, too. I had an AM serum cortisol drawn same day as the salivary test, as a reference check.
     
  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Just wondering, because 15 seems to be not so bad. Mine is supposed normal / low normal for most of the day, then higher at night as well.

    Have you ever tried seriphos before bed to lower cortisol at night?

    Another thing I've just recently stumbled across is that melatonin and cortisol have an inverse relationship. If you take melatonin for sleep, and I read that less than 1 milligram is often more than enough, however mega dosing melatonin should have a suppressive effect on cortisol as well, like 5-10 mg's.

    My new theory is that by lowering cortisol when it rising at night, you are saving it for the day when you need it. Perhaps allot of adrenal fatigue is caused by this; you can't sleep at night because of high cortisol, then you can't produce enough/have enough for the day, so you're fatigued during the day because of lack of sleep / quality sleep, and lack of cortisol. It could be more about diurnal rhythm rather than just the glands being "too tired."


    Another thing I wanted to mention is that I have a mutation on the CLOCK gene. According to this, it means my body has difficulty following a circadian rhythm, especially if I'm not on a schedule.

    I will post another thread with my theory about melatonin and cortisol shortly.
     
    roxie60, Little Bluestem and maryb like this.
  11. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Yes, 15 is not bad. I function much better than when it was at 12. I hope that in another year it's up another 3 points - that would be great. What was your AM cortisol? Was yours the ZRT test?

    I have tried licorice and some other things, but it doesn't seem to really improve the rhythm. I still always have a small mid-afternoon crash, and then can easily fall asleep any time after 8:00 PM or so. I can sleep a lot.

    Interesting you mention seriphos. I thought about trying it, but wasn't sure how long the cortisol lower effect would last. I did incidentally take a dose of it today in a liposomal vitamin C packet the dentist sent me (I had some amalgams out today). I took a dose at 9:00AM, and fell asleep at 10:00. :) It does seem to make me sleepy!!
     
  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    One AM cortisol test around 10 AM was 18.6.

    My Saliva results are here:

    http://curezone.com/upload/_A_Forums/Adrenal_Fatigue/zrtresults.png

    Currently I use 12 mg's diphenhydrame, 100 mg b6, 500 mg magnesium, 50 mg zinc gluconate, 1 mg of melatonin, and 1 seriphos before bed. I'm planning to trying a melatonin mega dose experiment soon, but I'd have to take it earlier to avoid it impacting morning cortisol. Also, long term use of melatonin is seen to lower morning cortisol, so I may need to cycle off week to week and just cruise on diphenhydramine solo.

    Glad to hear you got your amalgams out. How much did that cost if you don't mind me asking? I'll also be curious to see if it has a large impact on your energy.
     
  13. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Wow, you have a huge evening cortisol blip. Do you know why? Does it match your sleep or energy cycling?

    Mine is:
    7.5 @ 8AM (range 3.7-9.5)
    1.4 @ 12PM (range 1.2-3.0)
    1.4 @ 4PM (range .6-1.9)
    0.8 @ bed (range 0.4-1.0)

    Nothing is particular way too high or way too low, and generally I have been much better in 2014 when it was taken. I did not have one taken in 2012-2013 when I was really sick.

    Amalgams were around $300 per side - I just have two small ones on each side so not crazy expensive. I am not expecting any notable difference, but since I have the GSTT1 gene deletion (mercury detox path gene), I thought removing them made good sense.

    All I take for adrenals is some cortex and some Gaia herbs in the AM. Sorry if I am repeating myself on that. :)

    Does zinc cause any issues at bed time? Do you take it with some food or on an empty stomach??
     
  14. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    It did seem to match my energy pattern, however it seems to have changed since then.

    Wow that's cheap for the Amalgams. I always hear it's thousands of dollars.

    I started taking iodine at one point which really helped for a few days, then it started to not help, and caused hair loss, and made me go hypo. I'm not sure if that affected my adrenal glands, but I just tried iodine again and the same effect happened with hair loss, and feeling cold. So I think I made myself allergic to iodine, if that's even possible.

    Unless iodine stimulants my thyroid beyond what my adrenals can handle, the adrenals begin to release allot of cortisol and drain themselves. OR, I'm herxing, which I don't think is the case.

    I was taking adrenal gland, but I seem to do better with out it. I'm currently not supporting my adrenals. Getting allot of sleep seems to be the best supplement currently. Not getting sleep makes me feel hypothyroid.

    Zinc doesn't cause any issues for me. I have elevated krytopyrolles, so I need zinc, although I haven't been tested for it. I also take it on an empty stomach.
     
  15. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I took iodine .05% or .5%, can't remember. For a couple weeks applied to skin. Soom after had tsh results shoot thru roof....19.24, prior test was 3.75.
     
  16. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I'm working with David J Clark right now on my thyroid. We are trying to find out if I'm seronegative Hashimoto's. The normal labcorp thyroid antibiody blood pannels test for Igg antibodies and not Iga. Some people don't produce detectable Igg, and instead are producing Iga.
     
  17. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    Interesting, need to go back and look at my labcorp results
     

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