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Thyroid antibodies dropped significantly

Discussion in 'Thyroid Dysfunction' started by digital dog, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I know Prof. Edwards is an immunologist, but I know of a researcher in the UK who is working of the role of Yersinia Enterocolitica in Graves´s Disease. There is a lot of debate about this it seems, but I don´t think the issue has been settled yet (although I´m sure Prof. Edwards will say it has been).

    This is a interesting recent study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21488870

    It looks like reasonably good evidence against a causal role, but the other interesting thing about it when you actually study it in detail is the prevalence of Yersinia antibodies in the study population (both cases and controls were related to people with autoimmune disease). They found around 30% were positive for IgA! This significantly higher than in any of the seroprevalence studies of the general population.

    The authors go on to suggest an explanation for this fact:

    A higher prevalence of YOP IgG and IgA in female relatives of patients with AITD than in controls derived from the general population has been reported previously [13]. The higher rate of persistent YE infection in AITD relatives might be due to susceptibility genes for AITD contributing to the risk for YE infection. The Danish twin study indicated that the genetic contribution in the association with YE is modest, and that it is more likely that environmental exposures to confer to the reported association between and YE and AITD [12].

    So, even if Yersinia doesn´t cause thyroid disease, the fact that a person has thyroid disease may mean that they might also have Yersinia infection!
     
  2. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    Dear digital dog,

    As far as I know there is no causal connection between gluten sensitivity and thyroid disease, so I cannot see why one would want to stop gluten to try to alter thyroid antibodies. Maybe someone has suggested that but I cannot think of any reason to.

    The standard line from endocrinologists is that you only feel bad with autoimmune hypothyroidism if your T4 and T3 are low. The situation for autoimmune hyperthyroidism is a bit different because it is recognised that eye problems and swollen fingers occur with normal T4 and T3 and are directly due to antibodies that may not actually be affecting the thyroid itself. However, antibodies tend to get ignored by endocrinologists and I think this may be a mistake. I suspect that quite a lot of symptoms in hypothyroid cases are also due to the antibodies directly.

    The problem is that the antibody tests used in the lab do not correlate well with what the antibodies may be doing in the body. You might have 100 units of antibody binding on a test but only 13 of those units might be antibodies of a sort that caused symptoms - we simply have no information on this.

    In a sense I do agree that if thyroid antibody levels have halved and then halved again you might expect at least a reasonable chance of that being associated with feeling better - but only if your symptoms are due to thyroid antibodies and so far in this thread I am not sure I can see what symptoms you are talking about and whether there is any particular reason to think they are due to anti-thyroid antibodies. The typical features associated with antibodies in autoimmune hyperthyroidism are protrusion and discomfort of the eyes and sometimes bumpy swelling along the shins and podgy fingers. I am not sure that other symptoms would be expected to change if antibodies went down.

    The key thing is that all these things involve very specific mechanisms that need to be considered separately. They do not all go together. So, as I say, I cannot think of any good reason to stop gluten if you are worried about thyroid antibodies, whether or not these are causing any symptoms.
     
  4. digital dog

    digital dog Senior Member

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    I very much appreciate the post Jonathan.
     
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am sorry, but there is plenty of evidence linking gluten with each and every autoimmune disorders, inlc linking gluten with Hashimoto's and many celiacs have Hashimoto's and many Hashi's patients develop celiac disorder.

    Endos are just criminally pretending there isn't.

    The connection might not be causal, but it certainly aggravates the autoimmune response.

    Edit-- BTW my thyroid antibodies halved after going gluten free.
     
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    Those are associations, not causal links. And the association is a weak statistical one. There is no association with most of the autoimmune disorders I have been involved with - the genetic risk factors are known and are different. Muddling up associations with causes is not going to help people understand what's going on.

    I don't know what you mean by aggravating the autoimmune response. It sounds like pseudo-immunology to be honest.
     
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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  8. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    barbc56 likes this.
  9. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    South East England, UK
    @Jonathan Edwards Talking about thyroid antibodies and disease, two years ago an elderly gentleman who I knew had a full private thyroid panel done through Genova. He just wasn't feeling well and felt his thyroid might be something to do with this. He was already on 150 mcg thyroxine. Well it came back with both types of antibodies in the high thousands, I had never seen anything like this and rang Genova who said these antibodies were the highest they had ever seen so high so naturally he went back with the report to his GP who referred him on to several consultants including an Endo in the NHS to try and find out what was going on.

    They didn't ever really come up with anything significant but did reduce his thyroxine a bit. He even had a full body scan but he wasn't told anything definite until in March this year when he was told he had lung cancer. Two weeks later he died. Am I wrong in thinking that there must be some connection here with sky high antibodies and the immune system bearing in mind that about 18 months later he was dead?

    Pam
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    There is no research on it conducted by Fasano at least. I was talking about autoimmunity
     
  11. digital dog

    digital dog Senior Member

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    Gondwanaland,

    Did you feel better when your antibodies went down? How long did it take you?
    I'm more confused now. I do not find a gluten free diet difficult but I would rather not bother if I am not gaining anything.
    It feels good to get my antibodies down (I imagine they will be close to zero in the new year) but I am VERY upset there is no improvement in my health. Surely I should feel SOMETHING!!! Perhaps it will keep other autoimmune conditions at bay (have a family history of autoimmune crap).
    In my last post I said my TSH was 14 but it was actually 12 and only for a short while. I don't know why it went so far up and then down so quickly. I don't recall being any more tired than I already am.
    My TSH is now around 2.2 and my T4 seems to always be at 14 (have records years ago when it was at 14).
    I thought my problem might be thyroid but it now seems this was wishful thinking.
    I suppose I should be pleased it is not my thyroid as I cannot tolerate the meds and hypothyroidism without meds would be pretty hellish I imagine...
    I have a number of well friends who have hypothyroidism and they are full of energy and enthusiasm on thyroxine.
    I just wish something could help me. Just one thing.

    :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
    Getting upset now.
     
  12. digital dog

    digital dog Senior Member

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    Mia,
    Antibodies at 2500? Are you sure? That is REALLY high. Did you feel any different when they lowered?
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2015
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    We want to lower inflammation and lower antibodies is one of the steps in that direction.
     
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  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    We are going to get there. We just have to keep searching and educating ourselves. It takes time. :hug:
     
    Tammy likes this.
  16. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    That was my point really - you seem to be talking about autoimmunity as if it were all mixed up together as one process. Autoimmunity to thyroid proteins is quite separate from autoimmunity to tissue transglutaminase in coeliac disease. Digital dog is interested in knowing if there is any reason to think that cutting out gluten would help symptoms that might be associated with thyroid antibodies. I cannot see any reason to think so.
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I am not sure that there need be any connection between the lung cancer and the thyroid antibodies. Thyroid autoantibodies are pretty common in healthy people and lung cancer is pretty common. Autoantibodies do sometimes occur in association with cancers (and obviously autoantibodies come from the immune system) but these tend to be rather rare autoantibodies like the ones seen in dermatomyositis.
     
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-10/sh-rfn102215.php
     
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  20. digital dog

    digital dog Senior Member

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    This will be my last question and I very much appreciate everyones input.
    Jonathan you say that thyroid antibodies are not uncommon in healthy people. Would you have a percentage for this?
    I thought high antibodies was clearly indicative of thyroid problems but if a section of normal people have high antibodies then I am less concerned.
    Many thanks
     

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