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Thoughts about Magnesium and how to get it into the Cells

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Kimsie, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    I have been researching, thinking and experimenting about and with magnesium lately. I have posted my thoughts and experiences in the Genetic Testing forum, but I think I will post a summary of my conclusions that I have come to so far here because I think it may be of interest to a lot of people here at Phoenix Rising. These are my own ideas. I am not saying they are proven scientific facts. This is for people who want to think about them and see if they make sense to them.

    My most important thought here: magnesium deficiency will slow methylation and you can supplement to push methylation, but that will only drain the magnesium more unless you take care of the magnesium deficiency first. I think this can become a vicious cycle!

    It is commonly believed that bowel tolerance with magnesium is caused either by irritation of the bowel or by osmotic pressure bringing water into the bowel. I have come to the conclusion that is is neither of these but that it is because a push of magnesium will push the serotonin production of the enterochromaffin cells in the intestinal lining leading to excess bowel motility, because the level of serotonin is how your body controls bowel motility.

    Since these enterochromaffin cells are exposed to a higher concentration of magnesium (the magnesium in the lumen or inside the intestine when a person takes magnesium orally) than the rest of the cells in the body which are exposed to much lower concentrations in the blood, they will produce excessive serotonin leading to bowel tolerance before enough magnesium has been absorbed to supply the other cells.

    In a chemical reaction, when one participant in the reaction is decreased, an increase in another participant can compensate and maintain the production of the product. When a person has magnesium deficiency, (which is probably much more common than it is realized, because it is difficult to test for, and also because most doctors have an idea that magnesium deficiency must cause muscle spasms and such, and don't test for magnesium deficiency if a person does not have the expected symptoms) then the body will try to produce more of the enzymes that use magnesium in order to compensate, but this compensation fails as the magnesium levels in the cells drops lower and lower.

    Because the body is attempting to compensate by increasing the levels of the enzymes that use magnesium, when magnesium is suddenly added to the body in larger amounts, the product of those enzymes may increase enough to cause undesired symptoms. In my case when I took magnesium rectally I got symptoms of excess serotonin, dopamine and adrenaline, with a headache and raised blood pressure and inability to sleep. But for other people it will relieve symptoms as they are finally able make the products they are missing in their body. Magnesium is used in about 80% of the body's reactions so which symptoms an individual gets depends upon their genetic and environmental factors.

    Going back to the chemical reaction idea, suppose there are three participants: an enzyme, magnesium, and another cofactor or substrate. If magnesium is low, then the reaction can be “pushed” by increasing the cofactor or substrate, in order to increase the amount of the product of the reaction. Because of this, when a person is depleted in magnesium, giving them the cofactor or substrate will relieve symptoms, but it draws more magnesium into the reaction and further depletes the magnesium. So it can appear that the person was low in the cofactor or substrate, when they were really low in magnesium.

    I believe that this is what has happened to my son. After over a year of extreme fatigue he started taking methyl folate because we had discovered that he has the MTHFR C677T gene mutation. It was like magic. When we upped his dose to 5 mg a day he felt a lot better within 2 hours and his fatigue gradually completely resolved over the next few month. But as his fatigue was going away he gradually started getting symptoms of depression. Eventually the depression was extreme and I started finding vitamins that helped his symptoms, but I could never get them to resolve completely for more than a couple days and they they would come back.

    I think what happened was that his symptoms were actually caused by magnesium deficiency brought on by years of living with water softeners and neutralizers that were taking the magnesium out of our water supply. Because magnesium is required for the production of SAMe from methionine, low magnesium was inhibiting his methylation, which in turn slowed his folate cycle, leading to fatigue and probably megaloblastic anemia.
    magnesium.jpg

    I had noticed that he had to have quite a bit of magnesium but finally I realized that all the reactions I was dealing with used magnesium somewhere along the line and I started looking at it from a different point of view. I have come to the conclusion that all of his symptoms could have been caused by magnesium deficiency except leaky gut, which was probably caused by zinc difficiency brought on by a low fat vegan diet. (The leaky gut issue is resolved as long as he gets enough zinc.)

    Going back to the subject of bowel tolerance and how to get enough magnesium to the cells to replenish their supply, I am thinking that taking magnesium rectally without taking it orally might be the most practical, easy, painless, effective and non prescription way of doing it.

    I use sea minerals (which has magnesium chloride) right now but I have ordered some nigari flakes, which are basically the same as sea minerals except dried, and a lot more economical. I mix the sea minerals with 2-4 oz of water and use an empty fleet enema bottle for application. It works better if you do it soon after a bowel movement. If the bowel is full you might have to go right away, but if that happens you can just repeat.

    How much to take? An overdose of magnesium can kill, so you can't just put a ton in there at once, but for an adult a dose of 500-600 mg at a time should be safe, this is the amount that Dr. Myhill recommends. We are using about that amount. This could possibly be done again later in the day, as long as the person isn't having any problems with it, (but this is not what Dr. Myhill recommends so maybe that's not a good idea). I understand that the effects of an injection last for about 8 hours, so it may be safe to take another dose after 8 hours. This is just conjecture on my part so I think each person has to look at any symptoms they are having and how the magnesium is affecting them. At first there may be side effects from pushing unwanted enzyme reactions, such as for me because I already have enough dopamine and serotonin and more just gives me symptoms.

    You want to watch out for low blood pressure and too much sleepiness, although some sleepiness from increased melatonin may be desired at night. If I was having low blood pressure I would definitely wait and not take another dose and perhaps people with low blood pressure problems should take lower doses. Perhaps some other people here have information about how much magnesium can be taken by intramuscular injection, which should be similar.

    I just looked up dosages for injection and this is the highest that I've seen:
    Severe deficiency: 250mg/kg IM within a period of 4 hours if necessary;


    Which translates to 1.5 grams of elemental magnesium over a period of 4 hours for a person who weighs about 130lbs. I think this is for people who are having dangerous symptoms from low magnesium. Other recommendations are considerably lower.

    Well, I think this post is long enough. I hope this is helps. I will post again on this thread how my experiments with this are coming out. We have only been trying the rectal magnesium for a few days so far, and we haven't tried it without any orally, so I have to see how that goes.

    Kim
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  2. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Kim,
    You might be interested (I mentioned in my post on magnesium) that I found I could go way above bowel tolerance by splitting open magnesium taurate capsules and mixing them in water, and drinking this throughout the day. I could easily go up to 6g that way (not saying you should)...However, I have also found that it is better for me to have short "intense" bursts of magnesium, as if it's necessary to get the concentration gradient up high enough.
     
  3. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    That's very interesting. I will keep it in mind. I wonder, as you have said, if it isn't better to get bursts of higher levels. Dr. Myhill says that she thinks it is easier for the cells to get the magnesium inside when you get the serum levels higher. Since the kidneys are constantly removing the magnesium, the long slow administration might not get the blood levels up high enough to get the mag in the cells.

    I noticed after I did my 500 mg rectal dose that gave me side effects, that the next day my blood pressure returned to normal, after being somewhat high for about 2 years. I have been doing several 100 mg rectal doses a day but I think tonight I will try a higher dose again.
     
  4. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    So now we have discovered that whichever end of the digestive tract you use, the enterochromaffin cells appear to absorb enough magnesium to cause bowel tolerance after a couple of days very soon after taking the magnesium. We found that by the 3rd day of rectal administration we could only hold it for about a half hour before we would have to go, but only it was only the lower end that was cramping and the upper end was not. So now we are going to try alternating either every other day or every second day to see how that works.

    Today I have noticed that the ringing in my ears is about 70% better, in addition to my blood pressure still being normal.

    I had a red cell test taken on my son last Friday so it will be interesting to see how that comes out. I understand that it isn't always accurate. I had a hard time getting the doctor to agree to the test even though she is an ND, because she thought that if he didn't have muscle cramps and had been taking so much orally for 2 months that he couldn't possibly have low magnesium.
     
  5. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    Concord, NH
    What form of magnesium are you doing this with?

    GG
     
  6. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    This is (part of) the reason for "Start Low, Go Slow".
     

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