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Thirst for MFolate, those that have ramped up

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Do any of you that have ramped up get a "thirst" for MFolate? Like you just want more?

    Analagous to the movie "Lucy" or "Limitless" perhaps (or Pi if you've seen that).

    I'm up to 3mg per day (1mg x 3) along with 800mcg Enzymatic B12 with each.

    I'm not sure when to step up again, or when to think that I'm good where I'm at. If I ramp up too fast what are the dangers (other than potassium issues).

    I've had some positives like better sleep and some mental clarity reminiscent of the time before I had CFS issues.
     
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  2. silverseas2014

    silverseas2014

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    Hello. I am working on "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate (Solgar's Metafolin). I am currently taking a total of 14,000mcg in two doses: one 7,000 mcg in the morning and one 7,000 mcg in the afternoon. (I use the 1,000mcg tablets of Solgar's Metafolin).

    Before I did this, I did a trial run (with lots of logging of symptoms, etc.) of simply how much Methylfolate I could tolerate comfortably. Over a week or so, I worked up to 20,000 mcg a day and felt ok. There were some mild headaches ---for those, I would take Potassium and/or Niacinamide (I don't use regular Niacin)---and both those seemed to get rid of of the headaches. I largely think it was taking lots of Potassium Gluconate as I did this that helped mitigate side-effects.

    Why did I settle on 14,000 mcg/day of Metafolin for my "Penetrative Dose"? I was not sure that there was much difference in how I felt when I took (roughly) 14,000 mcg and 20,000 mcg. I am going to repeat this ramping up experiment in another week or so---with 14,000 mcg being the baseline and see how I feel as I go up and up.

    It's important to note that I was and am taking large doses of Methyl B12 (Webber Naturals--I've recently switched to Webber after taking Solgar's Methylcobalamin for the last few years.--Webber is much cheaper and seems just as effective). I was and still do take approximately twice as much Methyl B12 as Methylfolate---why? My body simply seems to need it and my body seems to respond very well to much of it.

    Additionally, I take Dibencozide once a week (although I am experimenting with the doses as I write--you know, the Big Gorilla in the room). I take a large dose of Dibencozide --about 50 mg. (Source Naturals 10 mg./tablet). I spread the 50 mg. throughout the day---I generally have quite a bright day when I do this. I am going to experiment with taking the Dibencozide only once a week away from the Methylcobalamin--as Freddd has suggested. I did that just once and had a great day---felt absolutely energetic and cheerful.

    Finally, I take L-Carnitine Fumarate (Dr.'s Best). I take one capsule with each dose of Methylfolate (so, two caps a day). I will stay on this dose until I finish with the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate.

    So, what is the point of taking the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate? For me, at 52, my body has been limping along with folic acid and cobalamin since I began taking in nutrients. With my SNPS (see below) you can see that I have NOT been functioning optimally for my whole life (since I was conceived!)..... I want my body to function OPTIMALLY---that is, I want to have excellent, robust good health --mentally, physically, spiritually--I want the whole enchilada. And to do that I have to heal myself---every cell, every organ, every body system---And to do THAT, I need a lot of Methylfolate and a lot of Methylb12. I literally want to saturate my body with Methylfolate and Methyl B12 and let the healing begin.

    So, how long do I take the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate? As long as my body seems to need it to heal---I suspect it is far longer than a few days or a few weeks. I think I am looking a minimum of months (6 months) to a year or even a few years. I don't know. And I think everyone is different with regard to this protocol. Everyone is starting it at a different age, with different SNPS --each person has to do their own experiments and log, log, log.

    For myself, I am not going to start and stop this protocol. I want to saturate my body with Methylfolate and Methylcobalamin (and all supportive supplements) and KEEP IT saturated. And watch closely to see what happens. .... I've run out of room here, but it's enough. Cheers, Silverseas2014
     
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  3. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    People with severe depression have been prescribed doses of methyl folate as high as 30,000mcg a day. There is no real harm in bumping it up but the thing you need to watch out for is other vitamin and mineral ratios that can become unbalanced from the high folate intake. On the flip side some people also respond better or do the low and slow approach as well. Just that in your case if it feels you want to bump it up then do it until wherever you reach feels appropriate for you.
     
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  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @sregan, I've done really well with high-dose methylfolate. It's helped my health a good deal. It took some months to get everything "settled", however, and I dealt with various symptoms off and on. Some minor potassium issues, headaches, angular cheilitis, but mostly it took the form of episodic anxiety/nerves/jitteriness. Also possibly some sleep disturbances although it's hard to tell about that since I have hormone issues and my sleep isn't entirely predictable anyway. Bottom line is that it was all quite annoying for a while, and I crashed hard a couple of times, but very worthwhile as I stuck with it.

    Now I'm symptom free and down to about 4mg methylfolate per day and seem to be doing fine. My max dose was about 40mg, however, for several months at least. Some days I went as high as 50mg but not every day. Doses in the double digits, especially the higerh double digits, are really expensive and I don't want to go there again. It took almost a year for me to get my dose back down to this reasonable level...I have just within the past few weeks been able to "graduate" to this low dose, and I started ramping up I believe late last February or early March.

    After the gigantic 40mg dose I had to step down only to 20mg for a while, then 10-15mg for even longer. If I didn't keep these big doses I would start to get some symptoms again, and it turned out that angular chielitis was a leading indicator with me, like it is with Freddd. I'll keep up with my methylfolate use for the rest of my life.

    I'm still not 100% well, and still on the journey of 1000 miles to healing (maybe for the rest of my life), but instead of taking three steps forward and two steps back, I'm taking more like three steps forward and one and a half steps back, which is better. Every time I crash or am able to overcome symptoms, I seem to be a little better than I was before.

    There are also some other things I'm coming to believer are critical to recovering your health and energy, like choline and lipids (cell membrane and neurotransmitter support). Read up on some of @Radio's old posts for more on that. I've been experimenting with choline and some nootropics with good effect. As much as we can do for the body with the Deadlock Quartet and other nutrients, without also boosting the brain chemicals we probably won't get all the way there. I've come to really understand that at least 2/3 of stamina and energy really is in the mind.

    Anyhoo...if you are "thirsting" for methylfolate you might want to try ramping up and seeing what happens. If the sides become intolerable, then ramp back down. Just make sure you're also getting adequate adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin for the methylfolate to "use" when you ramp up.

    AFAICT, there doesn't seem to be any real dangers to doing this besides potassium problems. Side effects that are not due to potassium and are intolerable but not dangerous are IMO the biggest problem/deterrent for people attempting to ramp up methylfolate intake. Each of us is different in the severity of the symptoms we get and what we can tolerate.
     
  5. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Hey @whodathunkit what so you mean by " I've come to really understand that at least 2/3 of stamina and energy really is in the mind."

    I've found aspects of my physical stamina improving but the brain stuff, concentration etc really lagging and noticing a real distinction between the mind stuff and the body -- no clear conclusions yet, other than noticing i can get improvement that doesn't seem to touch the brain stuff.
     
  6. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @SJB944: basically, I think we need to go after our brain chemistry in the same way (or somewhat of the same way) we're going after our physical energy with the Deadlock Quartet. We can't achieve peak physical energy if our brains can't keep up with what our bodies are capable of doing.

    I recently had a little epiphany when using sulbutiamine (a synthetic version of thiamine that passes the blood-brain barrier), acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC), a couple different kinds of choline, and a nootropic called noopept.

    I did the sulbutiamine stacked iwth the ALC for a couple weeks and noticed a real lift in mood. But it wasn't quite what I wanted. So I started doing some research and decided to try the other stuff.

    Wow! Within a few hours of adding in the cholines and noopept, I was literally LOOKING AROUND for chores to do. Zoooooom! It was crazy.

    That Sunday I did a solid *7 hours* worth of housework. I haven't done that much housework in one day without physically collapsing or having a psychological meltdown in probably a decade.

    I did not get bored. I did not get tired. I did not get overwhelmed. And I did not have any muscle soreness on that day or any subsequent days, despite all the bending, lifting, etc. I was like the Energizer Bunny...I just kept going and going and going...;)

    Seriously, it was like a little miracle. It gave me a glimpse of what life might be again.

    In fact, I got so carried away by how great I felt that I ignored the instructions of these nootropic substances and overdid them.

    You really need to cycle all nootropics, even ALC. Typically you take them for one week and then take a week off. Like that. It keeps them from giving you sides, and also is supposed to keep the effects "fresh". Ultimately you need to find your own rhythm, but that's the general cycling guideline.

    But I I didn't cycle...I felt so great I just kept taking them. I kept thinking I'd cycle down after the holidays were over. After a few weeks solid of daily use I began experiencing some sides. Blurry vision (citicholine and sulbutiamine), feeling a bit strung out (not bad, just a little) mild insomnia and headache (attributable to all of them), and dry skin (sulbutiamine).

    So I stopped taking them for a week. Started back again for a couple days but then came down with a horrid stomach flu right before Christmas. I couldn't take anything in my regimen at all, not even the Deadlock, for nearly a week. I couldn't eat. It was a bummer to happen on the holidays. It might actually have been a crash from the nootropics instead of a flu, but I'm thinking flu because it was quite virulent, and I had fairly high fever for several days. I've never had a crash involving gastrointestinal symptoms before. My crashes always involve extreme fatigue, respiratory symptoms, and muscle soreness.

    Anyway, the side effects ave resolved, but I'm still not taking the nootropics again yet. I'm still a little "off" from the flu and I want to give myself time to get it all out of my system.

    The good news is that even though I'm not taking the nootropics any more, some of the residual motivation remains. My attention span is noticeably better, and I'm more motivated to do things like housecleaning that normally I have difficulty even thinking about, let alone actually doing them.

    Like I said, although this experience with brain-boosting (i.e., nootropic) supplements didn't go smoothly, it has given me a littlle glimpse of what my life could maybe be like again. That day I did the seven hours worth of housework was as close to normal brain and body functioning as I've come in I can't remember when.

    Perhaps what I experienced is what we all can achieve that if we can hit on the right combo of stuff.

    The fact that some brain changes are apparently sticking around for a while even though I'm not taking the stuff any more has also gave me hope that maybe over some finite amount of time we can permanently and beneficially "retrain" our brains with supplements that address our neurochemistry, so that we don't have to take them forever. Or if we do need to take them forever, only very episodically, in the way booster shots are needed for effective innoculations.

    FWIW, I don't think I would have responded nearly as well to the nootropics if I hadn't had the physical foundation given me by doing @Freddd's protocol for almost a year first.

    Main point being that we cannot be at our physical peak without finding a way to get our minds caught up with our improving physical health. @Radio has a lot of good posts about lipids and whatnot to boost cell integrity and neurotransmitters for peak mental functioning.

    I'm not recommending these nootropics to anyone because I'm still not entirely sorted with them myself. But the experience they gave me regarding the mind-body connection is definitely worth mentioning. It's been an eye-opener for sure.

    HTH. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  7. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I seem to need more B12 also. I have been taking 800mcg Enz B12 with 1mg Solgar metafolin and been starting to feel worse. I'm gonna try 2 800mcg per 1mg Solgar. Just ordered more MB12 and Folate.

    Did you find that you needed to ramp up the LCF slowly or did you just go all in?

    From my understanding just because you have a single or double mutation doesn't mean that it's being expressed. I believe the SNP's are supposed to lead us toward specific medical tests to to confirm that a particular mutation is being expressed or not. The SNP's can initially point us in the right direction saving lots of trial and error.

    Cheers!
     
  9. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    What do you believe the crashes were due to?

    What made you increase? What did you feel or what symptom told you to go higher?

    Good stuff, I've played around with things like Piracetam and others back when. I'll look into this. I do take Lecithin every day in the AM

    Great post btw, thank you!
     
  10. silverseas2014

    silverseas2014

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    Hello. To answer some of your questions:

    I started LCF last October, a third of a capsule per day.... and then slowly added to the dosage every few days. I had no negative side-effects from any dose of LCF.

    I started LCF because I wanted all the supportive supplements in place BEFORE I tackled the most difficult: Methylfolate.

    Please point me to any lab tests that will tell me if I am expressing my SNPs --I would be interested in having tests run. But for right now, I have to make some assumptions in my attempts to heal. I assume that all the SNPs I have are expressing--and I take supplements based on that, and I log everything--from initial symptoms; doses/time of day taken; side-effects, etc. This is rough system --no doctors I know have been able to help me or spend enough time with me to try and parse all this stuff out. My life is ticking by and I really want answers, so I am willing to experiment and take some risks.

    Cheers,
    Silverseas2014

    I seem to need more B12 also. I have been taking 800mcg Enz B12 with 1mg Solgar metafolin and been starting to feel worse. I'm gonna try 2 800mcg per 1mg Solgar. Just ordered more MB12 and Folate.



    Did you find that you needed to ramp up the LCF slowly or did you just go all in?



    From my understanding just because you have a single or double mutation doesn't mean that it's being expressed. I believe the SNP's are supposed to lead us toward specific medical tests to to confirm that a particular mutation is being expressed or not. The SNP's can initially point us in the right direction saving lots of trial and error.

    Cheers![/QUOTE]
     
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  11. silverseas2014

    silverseas2014

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    I should probably clarify for any who read my thoughts about "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate ---I did NOT just start with a huge dose of Methylfolate.

    I have been working for over two years---figuring out which B vitamins were helpful at what doses. It took months to take each B vitamin and titrate it slowly to figure out optimal doses and side-effects. The results, simply, were that I easily tolerated large doses of B1, B2 B3, B5, but B6 was very problematic, and I had several serious side-effects for months based on large doses. Now, I only take a sliver of B6 (Pyroxidine Hcl, and NOT the active form, P5P). (An edit following Freddd's post: I also take a combined Choline and Inositol capsule (One 500 mg. capsule per day/Now brand----and I started slow and tiny with doses until I reached the one 500 mg./day dose)).

    Additionally, I have done the same slow, experiementing with dose of Vitamin D3, Selenium, Zinc, and Boron--logging doses and side-effects.

    I saved B12 and Folate for last because I had known for years through reading that they were some of toughest to tolerate. A year and half ago I started Methylcobalamin--from the first dose I had only good side-effects--an increase in energy and brightening of mood---but I still took my time --titrating up my dose, finding a "sweet spot". I did all this with Dibencozide (aka Adenosylcobalamin)--and also had positive side-effects---but even better, smoother than MethylB12.

    I didn't even try a dose of Methylfolate until I had all this in place, and then finally I tried a tiny dose of Metafolin--about 50 mcg (as I could break the tablet). Horrible initial reaction--violent headache, some nausea (and at that time I had little understanding of how important Potassium was to this whole process, OR niacinamide). I took this small dose for several days, thinking the side-effects would wear off, but they didn't. So I stopped.

    I continued on with all the other supplements, and continued reading, studying--trying to figure out why I had had such a horrible reaction. I finally GOT that Potassium is KEY in taking Methylfolate, and so I began again last October (2014)... again, starting small and going slowly and logging everything. But this time, I had a bag of Potassium Chloride and Potassium Gluconate ready to go. And this second time with Methylfolate went well--largely because of recognizing symptoms of hypokalemia--and then fixing them with a dose of Potassium.

    I didn't just leap into the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate ---I worked up to them. And I would not recommend anyone trying Methylation Protocols to just do large or very large doses of Methylfolate. When I answered sregan's initial question about "Penetrative Doses" I was trying to focus only on the question --and not all the background info that led me take the Penetrative Doses.

    So, I continue with the "Penetrative Doses" of Methylfolate--and lots of Potassium Gluconate (I like it better than Potassium Chloride).... in general, it has been a boost to my energy, mood and motivation---although I do not expect substantial results for some months to come.

    I hope this helps clarify,
    Cheers,
    Silverseas2014
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  12. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Increasing my metabolism via methylation beyond what my endocrine system (adrenals mostly but probably also thyroid) could sustain as a daily thing Also maybe detox.

    Still (always) struggling with some adrenal issues. They're not nearly as bad as they used to be but they still seem to lurk around waiting to pounce if I ramp things up too much. I'm not entirely sure my recent "brain boost" didn't crash my adrenals somehow, since I experienced such a surge in energy. Can't know for sure, however. But it's a suspicious pattern where I get sick (crash) every time I start something that ultimately does me a lot of long-term good.
    All the symptoms I had told me to go higher per what I'd read of @Freddd. I crashed pretty quickly after starting the Deadlock Quartet per the Freddd protocol. I read a lot of stuff on the board before I started doing this, and was pretty well persuaded by what Freddd has written. When I started getting sick per the pattern he had outlined again and again, I pretty much didn't impose what I thought about what was going on, but instead listened to him and took the leap. I got better pretty quickly (within a week) and felt much better than I did before I got sick. But as I said before, I did have to stay with high-dose for quite some time, and I worked through various side effects as time wore on. I had to go off the LCF because I got too speedy, work back up on that, etc. Many tweaks just from listening to my body. I think many if not most of us will have to stick with the Deadlock protocol for a long while if we take the leap of high-dose mfolate. Plus, doing high-dose for a protracted length of time requires a leap of faith in and of itself. Not everyone can do it financially or mentally. It's expensive and a lot of work. If you're having a bad day you really wonder if it's worth it.

    @stridor has some good anecdotes about finally taking the leap, too. He resisted for a time but says it paid off when he finally did.

    Thanks! I'm quite pleased with this "new wrinkle" myself. :) Just from what I read I remember that Radio got pretty frustrated because no one was listening to him about boosting cell integrity and neurotransmitters by using lipids and choline, etc. But I think he was right...it's a missing link in the process of recovering health. I think it may be an individual thing if people can handle the brain boost before they address methylation issues/metabolism. IIRC that was kind of an ongoing debate. For myself, I'm not sure I would have responded as positively (or at all positively) if I'd tried the brain boosting before addressing my physical metabolism. I did do NT Factors Lipid Powder per Radio's recommendations for a long while, early on in my methylation protocol, though. So that may have helped prep me, as well. Plus I always try to keep a good, healthy, balanced intake of EFA's.

    Let us know how you do, okay?
     
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  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I'd like to add here that am taking a choline and inositol supplement. I take that in my morning vitamins with pantithine. Following the patterns of symptoms, finding each additional thing that keeps the healing going stronger a little longer is good. I found something like 15 additional items that made an incremental improvement. I kept thinking "can there be another one", and there was for years. There were also alterations in timing. Twice or three times a day can smooth out a rough ride. TMG often can "mellow out" the excitatory effects of LCF. I don't need it currently but it was very helpful for several years. TMG also sucks the water out of the air, expands and comes apart. Sounds like things are going well for some. Excellent. Be In Good Health.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
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  14. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    So I doubled my MB12 intake to 2x Enz 800 mcg per each 1mg Solar Methylfolate and made a huge difference today. I was starting to slip into a deep depression again reminiscent of when I was Methyltrapped. I guess the B12 is just gone, all used up. In my Paleo book ("primal body primal mind") the author writes about how the lack of B12 can mess with the mind and many vegetarians are succeptible due to lack of B12 in the diet.

    So I'll continue ramping up. Seems that when I've had maybe too much B12 I get a little nervy/jittery. So the trick seems to be staying in the "zone".

    UPDATE: Today has been very good also. Second day doubling my MB12 and feeling good!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  15. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

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    I think this bears repeating. While Freddd's protocol has been nothing short of miraculous for me -- at the deep end -- it IS a lot of work and not cheap. I too have good days and bad, and on bad days I too wonder if I'm doing it right.

    Part of this is that my expectations have changed. It's easy to forget how much worse things were, and how much better I feel now as a *baseline*, from sleep to mood to energy. My deep fatigue is a thing of the past, as is simply not sleeping. "A bad day" today might make me doubt my current mix of supplements, or wonder at the foods I'm consuming, but it's nothing like the bad days I used to have.

    It's essential to notice our vectors.
     
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  16. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @aturtles, good post! I agree that one absolutely crucial thing is keeping in mind how much better normal is after a while. It's very easy to get completely let down by a bad day after you have a string of good ones. But as always, three steps forward and two steps back is still a net gain of one step. It's forward progress, no matter how you look at it.

    Knowing thyself is also crucial. If you can't sort your own body's signals or get confused by them all the time, methylation protocol is more difficult to do. The listening is a skill that all can develop over time, but the key is time. Most of us aren't good at listening to our bods when we first start out. IMO one of the reasons I had such good results with Freddd's protocol fairly quickly is I already had the skill in place when I hit PR. I'd already had years of experience with other supplements and regimens for this and that. Othewise I'm sure I would have had a much tougher time than I have. Which has been tough enough.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This is what I experienced on my first weekend aftar starting mB12 one year ago. There MUST be a wa y for me to feel like that every day.

    In these past 12 months I've learned to listen to my body, learned about my weaknesses, fixed my sleep and hormones with minerals and T3/T4 replacement, now I am fighting inflammation, but I think while I don't address my autoimmunity I won't be able to get much ahead with methylation (will start LDN soon).
     
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  18. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    My inflammation reduced significantly when I upped my mfolate and started my current protocol
     
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  19. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland: Izzy, I think there is a way. We just have to hang with it and never, ever give up. :D

    Good job with all you've accomplished in the past 12 months, BTW. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: You've really done a lot. It's great to hear you're progressing. :)

    I'm battling a little bit of inflammation right now, too, so I may up my folate again (a little, not to double digits) to see what happens, as per what @sregan just posted. I got zoomy and then so sick while taking the nootropics maybe I ran my immune system down.
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    The B vits are making me sleepy right now :meh: Esp. folate. I think it was @ahmo who just posted that folate increases NO, which perhaps I already have too much :confused: And I am surrounding myself of anti-ammonia and anti-uric acid supplements before anything else.

    @whodathunkit your posts have always been an inspiration to me since my rocky beginning :love:
     
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