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Think I've Hit Donut Hole Deficiency?

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
@whodathunkit
You're right that clean eating isn't enough. I've been the queen of it and am not ok. I'm sad to realize veggies may worsen my folate issues!
I have been there... The healthier I ate, the sickier I felt... I had all intolerances after taking Mfolate: nitrates, phenols, salycilates, oxalates. Things that helped me personally were (could only tolerate a Bcomplex after a 4-week magnesium loading):
  • stopping Mfolate
  • magnesium oxide (and no other form of magnesium, because all other forms caused me hypoglycemia)
  • salt in food
  • sodium bicarbonate mouth swishes, foot baths and full baths
  • thyroid support (compounded T4/T3)
  • a full Bcomplex (locally compounded with no B12 or B9) because these food intolerances can be caused by anemia (esp. oxalates) - excess B12 and B9 will cause low B1, B2 etc
  • a multimin with selenium, zinc, copper, boron and manganese (locally compounded, and I could only tolerate Boron for a couple of weeks before getting parathyroid pain) - the doses I took were Se 70mcg, Zn 8mg, Cu 450mcg, Boron 1mg, Mn 1mg
Be sure you have enough iron
Study the link in my sig "Balancing nutrients", it is very helpful.
 
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Messages
87
I have been there... The healthier I ate, the sickier I felt... I had all intolerances after taking Mfolate: nitrates, phenols, salycilates, oxalates. Things that helped me personally were (could only tolerate a Bcomplex after a 4-week magnesium loading):
  • stopping Mfolate
  • magnesium oxide (ano no other form of magnesium, because all other forms caused me hypoglycemia)
  • salt in food
  • sodium bicarbonate mouth swishes, foot baths and full baths
  • thyroid support (compunded T4/T3)
  • a full Bcomplex (locally compounded with no B12 or B9) because these food intolerances can be caused by anemia (esp. oxalates) - excess B12 and B9 will cause low B1, B2 etc
  • a multimin with selenium, zinc, copper, boron and manganese (locally compounded, and I could only tolerate Boron for a couple of weeks before getting parathyroid pain) - the doses I took were Se 70mcg, Zn 8mg, Cu 450mcg, Boron 1mg, Mn 1mg
Be sure you have enough iron
Study the link in my sig "Balancing nutrients", it is very helpful.
@Gondwanaland
I will check out your link. Thanks! Once you got the doses of vitamins and minerals right---did you go back on the b12/methylfolate protocol? Freddd's?
 
Messages
1
Hello, just wanted to agree that you should make sure your levels of other vitamins/minerals are adequate to support methyfolate & B12. Especially B2 & B6. I found I could only do about 300mcg of methyfolate & couldn't push past that. So then I did 200 methyfolate & 200 folinic. That seemed to be better. But then I remembered that B2 &B6 are very important for MTHFR & that B2 was a cofactor for MTR & MTRR. Anyway, by really bumping up my riboflavin (active form, 10 mg at a time), I was able to tolerste much more methyfolate. I was taking 50mg active B2 daily. After getting my test back, I was still needing MORE B2. I couldn't believe it. So, I pushed it up more, and now I'm able to do 1mg methyfolate, and more B6 -P5P, which before used to make me nauseated at anything above 25mg P5P. Hope this helps!
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Once you got the doses of vitamins and minerals right---did you go back on the b12/methylfolate protocol? Freddd's?
Never. Every now and then I take 1-2 sublingual drops of MB12 (200-400 mcg). Now that I know that Mfolate acts by improving insulin resistance, and that if I improve it I get metabolic acidosis, I steer clear from it. When I need a full Bcomplex I take one with folinic and be sure to have plenty of choline in my diet.

Another bad effect I (and my husband) get from Mfolate is the plummeting of serotonin and joint pain from high uric acid.
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
@Johnmac might be able to chime in with his experience, as well. He has recently had success with Freddd's protocol after struggling with the low & slow approach for a while.
:)

Um, a bad week this week - but 'bad' isn't as bad as it was, & some weeks I've had sparkling energy & mental clarity. It seems to go in these cycles for me - I don't know why.

The three big ones for me were getting on top of potassium demand (lots of coconut water these days, now that potassium chloride has begun burning my GIT); working out why LCF sent me into catastrophic crashes (too much: I had to re-start with liquid carnitine, which you can more easily titrate up from very low doses: I'm still only on 2.7mg/dose, after several months); & the big one: keep ramping up the folate.

I find that tyrosine works very well for mental focus, so now even in bad weeks I can work - sometimes lying down - whilst my body is fading.

The Fredd Protocol seems to do just about everything at once: for me, blood-sugar response, gut, mood, energy & a whole lot more lifted simultaneously. Only psoriasis remains pretty bad: I just haven't figured that one out yet.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
I take teaspoons of Himalayan or Celtic sea salt for trace minerals. I don't know what exact minerals I lack.
That's not nearly enough to make up an extreme mineral deficiency.

I strongly second @sregan about magnesium. Most of us are deficient in it anyway, because industrial farming methods leave little to no magnesium in the soil to get into our food, but especially with your long history of using proton-pump inhibitors, it's an extra risk for you.

For me, high dosing magnesium (600mg-1000mg per day) for a couple of years did wonders for stabilizing me with a lot of things. It improved my mood/mood swings a lot, improved my sleep, and helped me tolerate and benefit from iodine (for thyroid). I think the fact that I was "topped out" with magnesium and some other crucial minerals *before* I started methylation therapy is one reason I was able to start it more easily than a lot of people seem to, and get by with less severe sides. I did have to increase magnesium again for a while during the break-in period with methylation, but now I'm back down to normal levels. Normal being a relative term. I put magnesium powder in the water I drink daily (I mineralize distilled water) and I also take a few pills before I go to bed at night.

Minerals are crucial in all health but especially when pursuing therapeutic avenues that could fundamentally change your health for the better.

Other crucial minerals I needed to see improvement in my health even before methylation include:

--Selenium (I alternate two types: selenomethionine and selenocysteine, but some people can't take one or the other form)
--Zinc
--Copper

Lithium has been very helpful since I started methylation, but I only take a few hundred micrograms per day *at most*. Lithium can help with B12 absorption and utilization, but it can also have a deleterious effect on thyroid if you take too much. Others seem to need more lithium than I do. A reliable small intake of lithium has helped stabilize my mood and generally added a lift to my outlook. It's subtle but there. I dissolve lithium tablets in water and then drop some of the resulting conentrated lithium mixture into the water I drink every day.

Recently discovered I also needed manganese and molybdenum.

I also put a mineral supplement in my water called "Concentrace Mineral Drops". Using that is not enough to make up deficiencies by itself, but it can help you while you're making up deficiencies, and help you stay topped up once you're no longer deficient. Be careful about using too much of it, though...it can give you the runs and it tastes like ass.

Of course this is all very complex, and you need to do a lot of reading and research to help guide yourself, and then make a choice based on what you learn.

If I was in your position I might consider adding in more potassium in some powder form, a largish dose of magnesium, some selenium, and some zinc to start. Please do your research on the safety of these supplements and their potential viability in your situation, then make an informed choice.

My experience is that potassium is best taken as powder in juice or water because if taken as pills it irritates my stomach, as @Johnmac noted. I like to dissolve my dose into a shot glass and shoot it because it tastes terrible, and that gets it over with quick. ;) Then I chase it with a much larger glass of something that doesn't taste bad to dilute it in my stomach. Dilution being the key for me to not get stomach irritation from it. Your mileage may vary if you choose to try this, especially since you're been on the proton-pump inhibitors. Also, if you decide to try, it might be best to not take these minerals all at one meal, or on an empty stomach. Space them out through the day. Taking a couple or few at one time is okay, but spacing them out is better. Less rough on the stomach and also reduces the risk of absorption conflicts.

Anyway, let us know what you decide to do. Correcting mineral deficiencies can be a lot of work but very rewarding. Magnesium in particular is one that many people see a nice benefit right away. Good luck!
 
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whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Um, a bad week this week - but 'bad' isn't as bad as it was, & some weeks I've had sparkling energy & mental clarity. It seems to go in these cycles for me - I don't know why.
It did for me, too, for a pretty long time. Cyclical seems typical when undertaking this. Hope you're back to sparkling again soon! :)
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
I'll let you know as soon as the sparkling begins, @whodathunkit .

How do you take your m-folate? My Solgar m-f - which I take sublingual - is rotting my teeth pretty bad. But several people here report that sublingual doubles effectiveness. Given the expense of it, that means I'm stuck.

@ahmo takes her m-B12 transdermally (& I'll switch to this shortly). I'm wondering if that will work for methylfolate....?
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
@Johnmac, I've switched mostly to the Methyl Life product

http://methyl-life.com/product/methylfolate-10/

That's a link to the 10mg prodcut but they have tabs with dosages ranging from 2.5 - 15mg.

It's a quatrefolic product, which some people report having a more "jittery" effect than the form Merck (Solgar) manufactures. Sorry but I don't recall the exact difference between Solgar and quatrefolic. I just know there is supposed to be some small and fairly inconsequential difference at the molecular level that sometimes seems makes people react differently to the two products.

I think the ML felt a little bit different than Solgar when I first started, and I think I need a little more of it to get the same effect as Solgar, but the differences were minor and not enough to put me off it, and now I'm finding it works very well. It certainly keeps my sides at bay. And is so much more economical, even if I do take a bit more of it. I should add that I don't know what my exact low dose is right now because I'm still using up the 10mg tabs I bought. Except on the odd days I use some of my remaining Solgar, that's my minimum dose. The odd day I forget or only take a 1.6mg of Solgar don't bother me. At this point I'm stable enough that it would probably take at least a few days for me to begin exhibiting sides even if I stopped methylfolate completely.

I can't speculate how I would have done with the ML when I was still in the beginning stages of methylation, however. I think I did try a quatrefolic product back then, but can't remember if it did me bad or if I just decided to stay with Solgar because it was tried & true and I wasn't taking chances. I think I decided not to take chances but just can't remember.

I will say I was lucky in that I wasn't terribly pressed for money at the time I was high-dosing Solgar, so I'm sure that factored into my decision not to move around to different products, as well. But I can also say that if I'd been aware of the ML product back then and how cheap it is, I might have given it a good try. I could have used the extra $$$ from not having to buy Solgar even if buying Solgar wasn't a huge strain. I just didn't know about ML back then, and the other quatrefolics I looked at weren't that much cheaper than Solgar.

The ML product is a bit sweet but they use xylitol which is supposed to help prevent tooth decay. At any rate, the pills are so small that the amount of xylitol has to be negligible.

I didn't know that Solgar had sugar in it. I always just took it orally, though. I take the ML sublingually.

I think there has been some discussion about transdermal mfolate but I can't remember what the conclusions were. Hopefully @ahmo will chime in soon.

Have you tried any quatrefolic...?

I'll let you know as soon as the sparkling begins, @whodathunkit .
Please do. I hope it begins again soon. Sparkling is important. ;) :)
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
Thanks @whodathunkit.

I've never heard of anyone trying transdermal m-folate. (There is a company selling a patch with it tho.) But I'll try it shortly & see what happens.

So your m-folate is sublingual?

Thanks, I'll try the MethyLife when I run out of Solgar. Cheaper is good...
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@Nikki7 I just saw your statement re eating well. I had to quit green veggies, because it caused me insatiable folate deficiency. I was up to 30mg folate, and experiencing adrenal symptoms, including edema. When I quit the green veggies, I was able to halve my folate dose. When I then took it sublingually, I halved it again.
 
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