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They call me MR. KREBS: I'm getting fruity for the Citric Acid Cycle

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jorlev, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    With all my concern over methylation lately, I haven't really been paying much attention to the Krebs cycle and how supporting it's components might benefit me...until now.
    With all respect to Mr Krebs, it may be a disservice to call it that over it's other name - The Citric Acid Cycle. That name made a light bulb go off. I just realized that for years I've heard nutritionist say "make sure to eat your fruits and vegetable" and I've really only been eating vegetables and not much fruit. I haven't been getting enough Citric Acid. I put a wedge of lemon in water. I should be putting the whole lemon in there and doing it a few times a day.
    Also, there's the chelating effect of Citric Acid which could help with methylation if there is a lead or aluminum block in that cycle. If it can remove limescale from a boiler and affect ion-exhchange separate for the Manhattan Project (below), I guess it can get a few pesky heavy metals out of my body.
    Well, I guess it's about time to head off to the grocery to stock up on lemons and limes (highest for C-Acid) berries and apples (highest in malic acid, another component of Citric Acid Cycle). I believe Rich mentioned that berries also are a natural source of methylfolate.
    Any other board comments on Krebs (Citric Acid Cycle) and how to improve it's functioning would be greatly appreciated.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The citric acid cycle — also known as the tricarboxylic acid cycle (TCA cycle), the Krebs cycle, or the Szent-Györgyi–Krebs cycle[1][2] — is a series of chemical reactions used by all aerobic organisms to generate energy through the oxidization of acetate derived from carbohydrates, fats and proteins into carbon dioxide. In addition, the cycle provides precursors including certain amino acids as well as the reducing agent NADH that is used in numerous biochemical reactions. Its central importance to many biochemical pathways suggests that it was one of the earliest established components of cellular metabolism and may have originated abiogenically.[3]
    The name of this metabolic pathway is derived from citric acid (a type of tricarboxylic acid) that is first consumed and then regenerated by this sequence of reactions to complete the cycle. In addition, the cycle consumes acetate (in the form of acetyl-CoA) and water, reduces NAD+ to NADH, and produces carbon dioxide. The NADH generated by the TCA cycle is fed into the oxidative phosphorylation pathway. The net result of these two closely linked pathways is the oxidation of nutrients to produce usable energy in the form of ATP.
    In eukaryotic cells, the citric acid cycle occurs in the matrix of the mitochondrion. Bacteria also use the TCA cycle to generate energy, but since they lack mitochondria, the reaction sequence is performed in the cytosol with the proton gradient for ATP production being across the plasma membrane rather than the inner membrane of the mitochondrion.
    The components and reactions of the citric acid cycle were established in the 1930s by seminal work from the Nobel laureates Albert Szent-Györgyi[4] and Hans Adolf Krebs.[5]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Citric_acid_cycle_with_aconitate_2.svg

    Citric Acid: biochemistry, it is important as an intermediate in the citric acid cycle and therefore occurs in the metabolism of almost all living things.
    It also serves as an environmentally benign cleaning agent and acts as an antioxidant. Citric acid exists in a variety of fruits and vegetables, but it is most concentrated in lemons and limes, where it can comprise as much as 8 percent of the dry weight of the fruit.
    Citrate, the conjugate base of citric acid is one of a series of compounds involved in the physiological oxidation of fats, proteins, and carbohydrates to carbon dioxide and water.
    Citric acid is an excellent chelating agent, binding metals. It is used to remove limescale from boilers and evaporators.[6] It can be used to soften water, which makes it useful in soaps and laundry detergents. By chelating the metals in hard water, it lets these cleaners produce foam and work better without need for water softening. Citric acid is the active ingredient in some bathroom and kitchen cleaning solutions. A solution with a 6% concentration of citric acid will remove hard water stains from glass without scrubbing. In industry, it is used to dissolve rust from steel. Citric acid can be used in shampoo to wash out wax and coloring from the hair.
    Illustrative of its chelating abilities, citric acid was the first successful eluant used for total ion-exchange separation of the lanthanides, during the Manhattan Project in the 1940s. In the 1950s, it was replaced by the far more efficient EDTA. It can be used to slow setting of Portland cement. It can delay setting time substantially.

    **Note: Elution is a term used in analytical and organic chemistry to describe the process of extracting one material from another by washing with a solvent (as in washing of loaded ion-exchange resins to remove captured ions).
  2. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    Pyruvvate: A component of Krebs Cycle
    Pyruvate is a source of pyruvic acid, which your body needs to produce and use energy, according to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Pyruvate also appears to inadvertently burn body fat. Pyruvate is made in your body when you metabolize protein and carbohydrates, but it's also present in certain foods like cheeses and red apples, as well as beverages like dark beer and red wine, notes the University of Michigan Health System.


  3. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Just had a funny thought. I wonder how many, if any, of us are actually benefitting from the citric acid in b12 sublinguals rather than the b12. A lot of people said it stopped working for them a while back, sometime around when the formula changed which I think lowered the citric acid content. Pure speculation of course, and highly unlikely, but we do tend to ignore things like this which can be important. Who knows what sublingual citric acid does!?
    Dannylingo likes this.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Maybe this explains why I like apples so much.

    I'm getting the Nutreval test done soon. You can see a chart of how your Krebs cycle is working and what is blocking it (either metals and/or deficiencies). Then chelate and/or supplement according to that.
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Calcium pyruvate has been wonderful for me.
  6. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Speaking of the Krebs cycle here, is malic acid a good enough substitute for fumaric acid? I realize a lot of people here are getting their fumaric acid by taking LCF, but I seem to be one who can't really tolerate the carnitine part of that and I'm thinking maybe I just get enough of that anyway in my diet since I eat quite a bit of protein. Plus I remember Lotus saying that carnitine could possibly slow down thyroid function. I searched for fumaric acid powder but I don't believe it is readily available to buy. Malic acid is easy to get and quite inexpensive.

    Rand
  7. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Also, I am more than likely in the minority here as far as not getting excitotoxic and/or high NE symptoms, but I'm wondering if anyone here can enlighten me on the "beneficial" aspects of aspartic acid. I know it's an excitatory amino along with glutamate. I read where it has an indirect effect on the citric acid cycle and also read where some forms of depression could in part be from a lack of aspartates. More than likely a bad idea for someone with typical MDD but I don't have that. I actually have some l-aspartic acid powder on order, so I'm going to see what kind of effect it has on me.

    Rand
  8. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    My stomach does not seem to like it. I am taking Now Foods calcium pyruvate, 1 mg, but I don't notice a difference. Should be taking more perhaps, but I am having a hard time already. I am taking it one hour before food intake, during or after meal I start burping and feeling awful.
  9. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    definitely sounds like your system doesnt like that stuff. I'm starting to 'listen' to my body more to try and figure out what it doesnt like based on reactions like one you describe. Might be some other 'blockage' that doesnt allow your body to properly use this pyruvate or maybe NOW has an additive???

    Love your avatar Xara, reflects how I fel some days. Hope you fel better soon!
    Xara likes this.
  10. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I suspect it is the calcium. I am taking calcium-citrate-malate ( Thorne: calcium citramate, 160 mg) and it leads to gas, bloating, nausea, loss of appetite; symptoms that are not as awfull though as the feeling I get when taking a calcium pyruvate during/after a meal, but still...
    I more or less fixed the Thorne problem by taking it 20 minutes or so before bedtime: it does not bother me when asleep, what's even more, I have read that calcium, when taken 20-40 minutes before bedtime, may improve ones sleep. I never say no to better sleep. :) (Having no issues there at all ATM).
    I do need the extra calcium, because when not taking it I get muscle cramps. :(

    About the avatar, ha, yes, perfect reflection. Glad you like it, roxie! Cats are nice. I have a picture of a cute kitten playing in the grass. I do hope that sometime in the foreseeable future I can use that avatar. :)

    And I do hope there'll come a time soon you will be able to post a picture of a cat that's untroubled, laid-back and relaxed, roxie. This one's looking like it's thinking: 'O my, who are you, what will come of me, and how do I get out of this situation?' :)
  11. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I don't supplement other calcium. For me calcium on empty stomach kills my upper gi tract as calcium is major component for making hcl. I take 5 pills of 750 mg ca pyruvate across three meals. I never take without food. I also take three grams if creatine pyruvate with food. When added in biotin and b1 this when things started to take off with also my cytomel. Pain reduction from pyruvate and then t3 was enormous.
  12. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hmm. Forgot about the hcl. Perhaps I should stop the Thorne calcium-citrate-malate, and take the calcium pyruvate at bedtime instead. My stomach can't be completely empty, it takes five hours or so, at least that's what I've read, and dinner time is late at my place. But 5 calcium pyruvates, oof, I'll never achieve that I'm afraid. I'll look into creatine pyruvate.
    Thanks.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Just to be clear I spread the calcium pyruvates out into mostly separate doses and take with full meals (four of them). Also while the pills is 750 mg calcium pyruvate there is only 134 mg per pill of actual calcium, rest is pyruvate. So five pills is ~650 mg. I get a total of 1100-1400 mg of calcium a day including pills and diet with the five calcium pyruvates. The variation is whether I have a coconut milk yogurt or not.
  14. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Thanks for these details, dbkita. You're getting more calcium than me. Sesame seed, cale, chiaseed, nuts, these will have to provide for my need, but the first two I do not take daily (every other day or so). As to pills: two pills, 290 mg in total (being the ca pyruvate and the ca citrate-malate.
    I have tried again today to take the ca pyruvate after lunch, but alas, felt terrible for two hours or so. Perhaps I should increase my yoghurt intake (o my, another extra intake, I am beginning to picture myself as an overfeeded goose with a funnel. Maybe I should change my avatar...)
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Well if you think the issue is the calcium then eating more yogurt will ... give you more calcium. How much calcium do you get in your diet? Calcium only matters for total intake. Whether food or supplement is pretty immaterial except sometimes as pills you need to buffer with food and magnesium.

    Maybe you are having issues with the pyruvate? Do you take B1, biotin, and b5? These are all cofactors for one of the two ways to feed pyruvate into the Krebs cycle.
  16. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita!
    Calculating calcium... Haven't done that. Before I will: how important is calcium for the Krebs and methylation cycles? I have learned magnesium absorption depends on having enough calcium in the body, and magnesium is an important cofactor. But other than that? Do I have to make sure I get plenty of Ca or is it enough to prevent deficiency symptoms? (I get cramps when short in Ca).

    Pyruvate. Is my body telling me, like roxie already suggested, it can not deal with the extra pyruvate? B1, biotine, b5 important to the Krebs cycle - didn't know that.
    I am taking B1 1 x 100 mg, biotine is in my R-ala capsule, 150mcg of biotine to be exact, I take it three times a day, making 450 mcg. And b5 (Pantethine): 2 x 300 mg.
    The B's will change, I am taking them separately (meaning not as a B-complex) and I am planning of upping them and spreading them more throughout the day. Any suggestions on the dose? (I have no recent test results, the figures were fine in September when I was only taking vit D, a B-complex with very low doses per vitamine and hB12 injections. I'll see my Dr not before May.)
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Hard to say with calcium. Taking just enough to avoid cramps is probably not sufficient. But I don't believe everyone needs the 1000+ mg the govt keeps babbling about.

    The b1 and B5 amounts are fine. You get plenty of lipoic acid in your three r-ala doses. But the reason the r-ala pills have the small amounts of biotin is that alpha lipoic acid depletes the body of biotin. Some may disagree but I would think it might be good to increase your biotin splitting it across two doses. Maybe also split your B1 up into two doses (100 mg total but in two doses). How much b2 and b3 do you get and what forms?
  18. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    You're truly a big help, dbkita. I'll increase my yoghurt intake. I'll order a separate biotin supplement and will take it twice a day, just like you said. And I have started splitting the B1 tablet in half, taking it after breakfast and after lunch. I might spread this one, and other Bs even more out over the day.
    I am taking R5P 1 x 36.5 mg, and B2 1x 50 mg (finishing up the bottle, after that replacing that dose with 1 x 36.5 mg of R5P, so two doses daily then). Niacinamide 1x 62.5 mg, P5P 33.8 mg. I have been careful with the P5p and niacinamide; P5P because of being frightened to damage my nerves, and niacinamide because I have read somewhere over here that niacin may be
    causing SAMe to be quickly converted back to homocysteine. But I don't know whether that's true for niacinamide. Freddd advised me in a different thread where I was telling about my symptoms before taking a break (break meaning temporarily lowering methylfolate, mB12 and potassium) to look at my Bs, and spread them over the day. Freddd mentioned that in relation to heart arrythmia. And I think high chance there's something amiss with my Bs: last week my lip cracked, right now the roof of the mouth is damaged, so is the inside of my cheeck and I got acne that won't go away. I have read B3 could be responsible for that. So I was playing with the idea of upping that one first, doubling the dose, meaning taking 62.5 mg twice a day. As a start.
    Back to your question and my answer to that. What do you think of my present B2 and B3 intakes?
    Thanks for your interest, dbkita.
  19. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Your B2s look good and B6 is probably fine. I prefer higher B3 since so critical to the Krebs cycle. Yes it does lower SAMe, but it is all about balance. SAMe without ATP is not a fun thing ... been there. I would agree that some dose splitting is wise. Not sure about the B3 link to your oral symptoms. I have none of those on 750 mg of niacinamide a day in divided doses. I would think 250 mg of niacinamide split up might not be bad. But everyone is different. Remember lowering SAMe some is not the same as reducing methyfolate. Those are two very different things.
  20. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I have started to take an extra niacinamide after lunch, I'll wait for a couple of days to see if anything happens when taking 2 x 62.5 mg, if not I'll up it to 250 mg a day, just like you suggested, and I'll probably divide it in 4 doses.
    Thanks dbkita, also for your reassuring words about my B6 and B2. I value your opinion.

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