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There may be something to Vitamin C

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by drob31, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I think there are many reasons why it could help someone, and not just for immune system modulation (although that is one way).

    The following are unconventional ways I think it could help:

    • It thins the blood (protects against hyper coagulation which occurs in many cases of CFS)
    • It increases the rate at which epinephrine is created (helpful in situations of "central fatigue" which bodybuilders describe much like CFS, but more like central nervous system "burn out" and attributed to high levels of serotonin.
    • The adrenal gland needs large amounts of vitamin C to produce adrenal hormones. The is where the hpa-axis dysfunction component would be helped.
    • It boosts levels of glutathione in Lymphocytes, and boosts many facets of the immune system via many pathways, including increasing Interferon. Furthermore it concentrates in white blood cells, and it's possible you will need much more vitamin C for these white blood cells if you are dealing with a pathogen like EBV or even Lyme
    • It's an antioxidant that will help prevent cellular damage and breakdown of cellular components such as mitochondria
    • Vitamin C lowers cortisol overall, but can also lower the peaks and raise the troughs
    • It increases endothelial nitric oxide. This is an interesting one because I've been seeing some "breakthroughs" and or cures coming from using nitric boosting / mediating supplements
    • Vitamin C lowers histamine. So if you speculate histamines / MAST cell issues, this may help
    I think many people are turned off by the Dr. Lam "just take vitamin C" theory, but even he may be unsure of all the ways it could work. He may also prescribe doses that are too high. So the key is finding the right dose.

    Personally I've experienced some very good affects from Vitamin C dosed at 1 gram, 4x a day. I also notice when it seems like I'm too low, I just add another gram and it seems to help turn the brain back on.
     
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  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    A downside is that a significant proportion of an ascorbate dose is converted to oxalate. For some people at least this could lead to serious problems.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
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  3. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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  4. South

    South Senior Member

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  5. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    That may be the way to go then.
     
  6. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I don't know where some of the claims on that forum come from - eg only greater than 4 g/ is a problem, or that liposomal vit C is the problem..

    Just plain ascorbic acid was used in the studies and the dose found to cause increased oxalate production was considerably less than 4 g.

    Here is a fairly extensive study of the influences on oxalate production.

    This is a quote from the discussion

     
  7. South

    South Senior Member

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    @alicec I think that site said that liposomal C is NOT a problem, and that ordinary ascorbic acid can be a problem if it is not in liposomal form.
     
  8. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Yes sorry I wrote that in a hurry. I don't know how they can say that liposomal vit C is not a problem - ie I have never seen any studies done on this and logically it doesn't make sense.

    The liposomal route just bypasses the usual route through the gut. Once in the blood the ascorbate would be processed in exactly the same way. The oxalates are not formed in the gut but primarily in the liver.

    I'd want to know the basis of the claim before I could give it any credence.
     
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  9. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I understand that oxalates can be a problem, but I don't think it should deter everyone from trying it. Especially if they have good results from it.
     
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  10. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    @drob31
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Dr. Michael Lam MD has written extensively about the use of vitamin C in all it's various forms. His information is available to you for free at his website - no need to register, join, or submit any info. Perhaps you will have a different perspective after reading some of his work.

    https://www.drlam.com/blog/vitamin-c-sources/15737/
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/vitamin-c-dosage/205/
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/let-enhances-fatigue-treatment/199/
    https://www.drlam.com/search.asp?cx=partner-pub-7963028063620295:gob5ry-vk68&cof=FORID:9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=vitamin C&sa=Search

    Dr Lam M.D. specializes in adrenal function and the improvement of low functioning adrenals. In his book, "Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome - Reclaim Your Energy and Vitality with Clinically Proven Natural Programs," published in 2012, Dr. Lam writes a 9 page section on Vitamin C, it's various forms and aspects of use. On page 249, Dr Lam notes, "some suggest that the intake of vitamin C promotes the development of these kidney stones due to the oxalates produced when vitamin C is broken down by the human body. However, studies have shown that these theories are not well supported." He continues with further detail about this matter.

    Dr Lam notes that as the amount of vitamin C intake increases, the overall absorption decreases. However, the liposomal delivery of vitamin C overcomes this problem.
    With regard to nanotechnology and liposomal encapsulation technology for delivery of vitamin C, Dr Lam writes on page 247, (paraphrased) in general that liposomal delivery is far superior in bioavailability, however other forms of vitamin C have their own values and each individual reacts differently. He describes these forms and particulars further.

    @alicec
    Much research seems to indicate that vitamin C is not a problem with regard to oxalate.
    1. No contribution of ascorbic acid to renal calcium oxalate stones.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9429689 No contribution of ascorbic acid to renal calcium oxalate stones. ... (AA), the intake of high doses of vitamin C does not increase the risk of calcium ... Harvard Prospective Health Professional Follow-Up Study, those groups in the highest quintile of vitamin C intake (> 1,500 mg/day) had a l...
    2. Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10203369 Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women. ... Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Harvard Medical School, ... High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, whereas vitamin C can be ... cases ...
    3. High-dose vitamin C linked to kidney stones in men - Harvard Health ...
      http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/high-dose-vitamin-c-linked-to-kidney-stones-in-men-201302055854 Feb 5, 2013 ... Use of a standard multivitamin didn't seem to boost the risk. ... The Swedish study isn't the first to link vitamin C with kidney stones. ... should be avoided, particularly if an individual has a history of calcium oxalate stones. ...
    4. What Really Causes Kidney Stones (And Why Vitamin C Does Not)
      http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v09n05.shtml Feb 11, 2013 ... Instead, it relied on a different study of kidney stones where ascorbate ... and the group that took vitamin C appeared to have a greater risk of kidney stones. ... shown that high dose ascorbate does not cause kidney stones. ... C...
    5. [Powerpoint] Vitamin C. The Facts, The Fiction, And the Law ... - Whale
      http://www.whale.to/a/VC.NZ.17 Sept.2010.ppt Another large study, the Harvard Prospective Health Professional Follow-Up Study: “The intake of high doses of vitamin C does not increase the risk of calcium ... with the highest vitamin C intake “had a lower risk of kidney stones” than those ......
    6. Vitamin C Raises Risk Of Kidney Stones - Medical News Today
      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255923.php Feb 6, 2013 ... Low fluid intake can also increase stone formation. Women have a typically much lower overall risk of kidney stones than men. Therefore, the ...
     
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  11. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I have read the references you linked.

    Essentially four studies are being referred to :-

    Study 1, the Harvard Prospective Health Professional Follow-up study, referenced in 1 and referred to in 5, which did not show a link between vit C intake and kidney stone formation (no details given for number of participants or whether male, female or mixed)

    Study 2, a prospective study of 85,557 women, referenced in 2 and discussed in 5, which found no link between vit C intake and kidney stone formation

    Study 3, a study of 23,000 men which did find a link between vit C intake and risk of kidney stone formation, discussed in 3, 4 and 6

    Study 4, by the same author as in 2, but this time in 45,619 men. This is discussed in 3. You give no direct reference. Here it is. In contrast to women, this study did find a link between vit C intake and kidney stone formation.

    Reference 4 discusses the limitations of study 3, essentially because of its prospective nature. Of course this applies to all the studies. All were prospective, all look only at association, none go to causation. All are limited.

    Straight away these results suggest a gender divide. If the first study used a mixed population (which seems likely from the way it is described) this could negate any effect.

    More importantly, there are other problems with these studies and the conclusions drawn from them, including that the presence or absence of kidney stones is a very crude measure.

    The study I linked in an earlier post tried to refine things a bit by selecting a number of participants from several prospective trials and asking them to provide 24 h urine samples. A number of parameters, including urinary oxalate, were measured. This latter is a more sensitive measure than simply determining whether or not someone has kidney stones.

    Here is a quote from the discussion of that paper.

    There are several notable things here.

    1)The study showed that significant increases in oxalate excretion were observed after relatively modest doses of vitamin C.

    2) The randomised cross-over trial referred to, while small, is of the highest possible quality - far more valuable than prospective studies. It involved a randomised cross-over design with participants on a controlled metabolic diet. It studied only a single dose of ascorbic acid, viz 1000 mg X 2 daily and found this significantly increased oxalate excretion.

    3) The study referred to at the end of the quote is study 4 above.

    Finally, and MOST IMPORTANTLY - OXALATE DOES NOT EQUAL KIDNEY STONES.
    • Calcium oxalate kidney stones are well known, but the model of urologists and nephrologists, which holds that oxalates only enter the rest of the body after kidney damage has occurred, is outdated and incorrect; oxalate can be stored in and cause trouble in many parts of the body independently of kidney stones
    • Oxalate also binds to and disrupts the function of other minerals, notably magnesium, iron, zinc, copper and manganese.
    • Fine crystals of oxalate salts can be deposited in many sites in the body and this is thought to be an important part of many pain syndromes such as vulvodynia, fibromyalgia and interstitial cystitis.
    • Other known deposit sites for fine crystals include bone, the eye, thyroid, atherosclerotic plaques, testis, breast, lymph nodes and sites of old injuries
    • The free oxalate anion binds to and compromises the function of many important enzymes, disrupting energy metabolism, methylation and sulphur metabolism, including glutathione processing and recycling, to name just a few.
    As the Determinants of 24 Hour Urinary Oxalate Excretion paper made clear, most oxalate in the body does not come from the diet but is produced endogenously. Appreciation of the factors which can trigger excessive oxalate production, along with the widespread metabolic and other derangements which can flow from it, is relatively recent.

    Ascorbic acid consumption is only one contributor to endogenous oxalate production but it may well be significant in a population already at risk from other triggers - eg chronic oxidative stress.
     
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