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Therapy, Living with CFS and Anger

Discussion in 'Lifestyle Management' started by Misfit Toy, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    I have been away from here for awhile!! YAY!! No offense, but I was sort of off living. Working, not doing anything too much, but not focusing on CFS, basically.

    But, now I am here. I have a major sinus infection. I have had it since December 27th, but my CFS doc kept saying it was a virus. Everything is a virus with him. Pissed. So, I went on elderberry extract, a bunch of other "crap" sorry...and finally went to a specialist because I actually became so much sicker. Was diagnosed with a sinus problem with possibility of surgery. On antibiotics and was on steroids. What I love about this is...just kidding actually, I am livid. I could have been so much better if I had not listened to my CFS doctor, which brings me to my next paragraph.

    I have been seeing a therapist. She keeps telling me how angry I am. I am. She's not wrong, but yes, after 23 years of being sick, a crazy ass family, people who have come and gone, and no real beneficial treatments, I am pissed. Who wouldn't be? It's sort of making me even more mad to hear how angry I am. I know that anger is no good for you, but what would you feel if you had constant mishaps happening?

    Misdiagnosis that has lead to hospitilizations, an ovary that was supposed to have been taken out but wasn't. Being told you are nuts, having your family abuse you verbally and tell you you are worthless? Having ex's tell you they can't handle your situation but they don't want to lose you so they keep abusing you, hoping you will become "well." Having no support, fighting for yourself all of the time and dealing with a lot of people who TAKE.

    One of the reasons I haven't been on here lately is because nothing changes. We are dealing with the same issues, people try treatments...think they are great then get worse. Patients are mentioning yeast protocols and adrenal protocols like it's some new thing. It's not. All of this stuff was going on back in 1989, when I first got sick. Nothing has changed. "Ground Hog Day." "I got you babe, I got you babe, I got you babe."

    I rarely ever speak to CFS folks. I can't deal with it. I wanted CFS friends but the reality is, I want friends who have accepted this thing and live with it. I talked to a guy earlier today wanting to find out if there was another doctor that he goes to other than ours for CFS. He started talking to me about how my sinus infection is probably just yeast related. I sort of flipped on him. I have known him since 2002. Nothing has changed. He is going to all of these different doctors, in his 70's, which is also interesting and still treating himself for all the same BS that he talked about in 2002, only he is no better. He now has a roommate in a one bedroom apartment. He talks of how important it is to eat well; we all know this.

    I am angry. I know it's not good for me, but is anger really the worst thing? Wouldn't it be kind of weird to be sick, have family members that scream at you, abandon you, not know how you are going to pay for this medicine and think that your life is really great?? You haven't been on vacation, you have to work to pay for medical stuff...."yeah you know, I am just so happy!" I would seriously think, what recreational drug are you on dude and where can I get it, if someone told me they were happy with what I am dealing with or what many of us are dealing with.

    And...is anger worse than sadness, depression? Because no matter what, with all that I have going on, I am going to be one of these things.
     
  2. No_more_pain

    No_more_pain A Lonely Pretend Writer

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    Honestly, I'll take anger any day of the week over depression or sadness. But all three (or more) are seemingly inevitable at various times.

    Your comment about "nothing changes" really resonates with me. I think it's that very notion that pushed me away from attempting various treatments and spending what energy I had 'researching' this illness, years back. It was what was defining me, but I was getting nowhere with it. And that very notion of stasis was dragging me down continually. What 'works' for one person, doesn't with another. What works for one person stops working later. One person gets 'better,' another gets worse. Nothing concrete ever seems to be uncovered and frankly, I got really tired of trying to play homebound amateur specialist. I didn't have the presence of mind to do that. If I did, I'd be pursuing a Ph.D in something or other!

    That stagnation definitely made me angry. And the 'unfairness' of it all continually does if I allow myself to dwell on it. Shaking my fist at the heavens and all.

    And family... sigh. Whole other kettle of fish.
     
    Ocean likes this.
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Yup, you really do sound angry. I hope you find something that works for you and that you find people who suit your needs better than we can here.

    Good luck.
     
    Nielk likes this.
  4. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Nice. Thank you. It's good to know that I am not the only one. My therapist said that "it sounds like you have lost hope." No, I have not. But like you said No More Pain...I have lost the ability to jump up and down anymore. I am a realist. I live in reality. I see the light and the facets, all of them of any situation and I put it in its' place in my brain.

    I have hope in me. I know that I am strong and that's what has gotten me through thus far. I don't have hope all of the time in other people, in science, in our government, etc. But right now as I am tapping on my laptop with a tissue sticking out of my nose, I know that at the end of the day...I will still be fighting, standing, and trying to have a life, even if that just means a movie and a home cooked meal.
     
  5. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Dreambirdie, sorry to have offended you or others with CFS. It's not that I don't like CFS folks. You didn't seem to read the whole thing which is, I do well with other CFS folks that have accepted their illness and aren't rushing out looking for a cure. I can't handle the ups and downs of things working for people, things not. It's more instability in my already unstable life.
     
  6. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    If your therapist really keeps on telling you how angry you are, no wonder you're wound up. It's like the way that saying, "Calm down," to someone is often a way of being passive aggressive, and usually calcualted to make the other person hopping mad even if they weren't to begin with. I had a telephone counsellor once whom I gave up on largely because she responded to 50% of what I said with, "Oh dear." Sometimes people don't seem to have a clue how to respond to someone who is dealing with the amount of stuff your average ME patient has on their plate. I also got rather fed up with hearing, "Goodness, you're dealing with a lot, aren't you?" which is almost as much of a dustbin phrase as, "It's probably a virus." (Incidentally, the doctor who was called out to see me when I was first having a gallstone attack, and who barely bothered to examine me, told me that. Er, no, it really wasn't a virus, and it should have been massively obvious to suspect gallstones.) Do people really have no idea what it's like to live with this sort of medical condition? The telephone counsellor was from a service that was meant to provide counselling for disabled people by disabled people, and she still had no clue. Well, a bit of a clue. She was better than the woman I spoke to from a support line provided by a big charity for people with visual impairments, when my eyes were starting to get really bad and I was naturally freaked out by it, who didn't seem to have any idea what kind of loss we're all living with, let alone prejudice and difficulty in accessing healthcare.

    I'm fairly selective about how much I read about other people's lives with disabilities, or anything else heavy duty as well. There's only so much I can get emotionally involved in. I think it's a perfectly sensible approach, and far healthier than getting bogged down in too much internet drama. There's a level where a forum is providing support, and there's a level where it's draining, and it can easily slip from the one to the other, especially if you're stuck at home without much to do.

    It's funny, you see all these stupid trials where they are testing whether people with ME get better if they are gently encouraged to move about more, or what have you. You never see anyone offer a service where we can talk through the immense frustration we suffer, often downright abuse, or guidance in how to pace ourselves that focuses on stopping overdoing it, rather than being based on the assumption that we should do more. Because if done right, that sort of thing could be genuinely useful for a lot of people.
     
  7. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Calathea,

    I agree. Her telling me this over and over is going to have to stop. I need to tell her. Instead of telling me how angry I am...see why and go from there. No one needs to be told over and over "how they are." It's like a microscope is being put on the anger but not why. I don't or haven't been to anyone who has been able to really deal with the complexities of this thing. Therapists can sometimes be the worst.

    I have to find a GP who knows about CFS but doesn't concentrate on it so I can get basic good healthcare. I see my CFS doc for everything and he only really looks at CFS. He has never suggested I have a mammogram, he doesn't keep track of when the last time I had my thyroid and hormones checked and I am perimenopausal with thyroid problems, I basically have to go in there and tell him what I want. I am tired of it. A good GP would help a lot with this.

    Yes, I feel the same way about the forums. A lot of times there are people on here arguing, flaming is going on and I feel like I am back in high school. If you have a different opinion, nothing wrong with that, but walk away....no need to argue. I can't say the right thing sometimes. When I mentioned that I worked, a person on here came down heavily on me for being "lucky" enough to do that. If I say how utterly ill I am at times, people don't always respond to that or don't know what to say. I have stayed away for that reason as well.

    I agree also regarding a service for people to talk through what they have been through. How helpful would that be? But again, no one really gets this and many doctors and people who do, don't want to do with peoples emotions. It's too difficult for them.
     
  8. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Hi Spitfire,

    Sorry you are feeling such anger. It sounds like you had a "better" period and now because of this on-going sinus infection, it has you all down and out and angry.
    I can definitely empathize. I too am angry. I am also depressed. I am very emotional and stressed out. I have been having sinus infections for the past four months while being basically bed-bound and having constant immense headaches.

    I just think that maybe your anger is mis-placed. It sounds like you are angry that people are still searching for a "cure" or for a "treatment" to get out of the hole they are in and you are angry that it's the same old treatments that they are talking about.

    Don't be upset at PWCs who are searching for different treatments. It is their right and their choice to try different treatments. Why should that upset you that they are seeking to get well? What you are really angry at is "the situation". We are put into an impossible "situation" where we have to try to find something, anything that might give us some relief.

    There are people who have improved on anti-virals, GcMAF, Ampligen, Methelation Block protocol, B12 protocol and different supplements and protocols.

    I have been getting sicker and sicker as each year goes by but have tried different type of treatments and still am because I have hope that an existing protocol or a new one that will come up will work for me. If I give up this belief that something at some point will help, I might as well lay down right now in front of a full speeding train! (yes, I'm angry too).

    Instead of being angry at others with CFS who are seeking treatments, you should be happy for them. Would it make you feel better if we just "accepted" things the way they are and not try to seek help?

    I don't think that these statements that you made are helpful for people on this forum. I'm glad that you came back (although not happy that you are not feeling well) and this IS the place where you will find support and understanding but, please don't put PWCs down because they are searching for answers.

    I hope that your sinuses calm down and that your home situation gets resolved. It's good to let your anger out but, not healthy to let it fester on and on. By the way, depression is a form of anger. I hope things become stable in your life. This is one thing that we really need. We can't handle too much stress.

    So, welcome back and hope you calm down and feel better.

    Nielk
     
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  9. PNR2008

    PNR2008 Senior Member

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    I applaud you for your honesty and agree with you on many points. I heard anger was the flip side of sadness on the same coin and depression is anger turned inside. Anger is a part of this disease, how could it not? There's a line that God, nature, the universe puts in us for protection. That line says "no more". Yet we all have hope for a better every thing - a better any thing! Every day is different, heck sometimes every hour but I believe we should try to treat ourselves to what we need everyday within the confines of our circumstances. If we need bedrest, activity, social interaction etc. give it to ourselves. Right now I have head and hand shakes which comes on at least three times a day. Yesterday the nuerologist said it basically was stress induced or an increase in zoloft. It started on one tablet so I don't believe that's true, so now I'm tremoring all over the place and wondering "what the hell???" Do I want a diagnoisis of Parkinson's or dystonia? Absolutely not but the challenges of CFS/ME are mindboggling. I can't control everything (although I do try) so today I'm not going to get mad but I'll do something that makes me feel better maybe hug my dog or go for a ride or just lie here like a dead fish but I'll control these next couple hours. Some days that's all you can do but always stay away from negative people.
     
  10. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Hi Spit, nice to hear from you again anyway. I don't read too many threads on PR, but when I see your name I do.

    My opinions are:

    1) You should only go to a therapist who has dealt with a chronic illness. I think you're in New Jersey. A person you might go to would be Dan Gottlieb, if he is available. He is quadriplegic through a freak accident, led to divorce eventually and his wife died of MS (probably lyme, but anyway...) and a grandson is autistic. You need to go to someone who doesn't stand outside illness and just point out you're angry.

    2) Nothing is changing because PERHAPS you are in a place with too much mold. We've had that discussion before. I can definitely say I improved a helluva lot. I was really really really sick in NYC in my apartment...and I'm not well, but I'm very functional, active--and as you may know have done a huge amount of tent camping. I never thought I could leave my beautiful two bedroom rent regulated apt in a doorman building on riverside drive and the hudson river near a park and the express subway and gourmet food shops in the city I chose at 19 but...I am so happy I left it and all my fears about that and all my attachments to everything fade in the face of my new life, my discovery of nature, and my increasing health.

    I know you think you can't do it, and I fought it for a few years, but it was worth it totally and I don't regret it at all. You can make jewelry anywhere....

    I had horrible sinus problems in my moldy apartment, they weren't directly fungal, but my whole immunity was suppressed, I could barely breathe through my nose at all, and blew out greenish mucus in the mornings especially in winter with the windows closed...your immune system needs to come back on line on its own.

    Read Ritchie Shoemaker's latest book....the whole innate immune system gets thrown off. I'm not saying this is the answer to everything, but I bet it's 50% of the pie.
     
  11. hurtingallthetimet

    hurtingallthetimet Senior Member

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    hope you are feeling better {less angry} about things..just my thoughts...i think it is normal to feel angry about being so ill...espically in my expericence with an illness very little people in my life understand or even most didnt even seem to care to try to understand...its invisble and they think because i look normal and fine that i should be...these illness being so invisible get very little understanding or sympathy...its very sad...becuase we are so ill..and deserve respect and understanding..
    im not sure if thats what youve been through thats made you angry..but i do get angry and the way ive been treated makes me angry..im angry that these illness took my social life, my life with my family. i lost friends. i lost job...i lost so much..i could go on and on..and i think its ok to greive and be angry and sad and depressed over such loses..

    it is hard when you try and try treatments and doctors and therapys and medications and its expensive and drains you in so many ways and nothing seems to really help...that can drive the most of sane people insane i think...these are just my past expereicnces and thoughts..
    i see a counselour and psych doctor besides doctor for the chronic pain and fatigue..and i take medications for the depression and anxietys..ive been told i need to let go of everything that i loss and except it and move on...but it is hard when i feel like i lost so much...i miss work..i miss waking up feeling refreshed and being busy all day and half the night miss going to partys...miss it all...its a long hard process...i wish you the best and hope that you find something that helps you...but i just wanted you to know your not alone...
     
  12. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I think you have the right to feel what you feel. This illness and all that comes with it can be frustrating, anger producing, alienating, depressing and much more. And so can the experience of not taking the same approach as the majority seems to be. I think there's room on this site for all kinds of perspectives on the CFS experience and I personally welcome seeing various viewpoints and experiences and I appreciated that you shared your point of view. I hope your sinuses get better soon and that you find ways to manage the difficult emotions that come up in dealing with all this in a way that works for you.
     
  13. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Thank you and thank you to everyone who commented. And, yes...I am not mad at CFS folks and I never said I was. I am mad at "the situation." For years, I did these protocols...the yeast, the this, the that, I moved to California to improve my health. I did that for....15 years. That's a long time to keep trying to get well. I think my mom spent about $200,000 on all of the natural supplements. So, a lot what of I just said is where my anger comes from. I could have taken that money and bought myself a condo instead of thinking that all of that stuff would work, but I had hope...and now what I want is a CURE. In all the years, there has been no major thing that has worked. I believed when doctor's said, "curing your yeast, will cure you." And I wanted to believe when Poesnecker said..."your adrenal gland is the whole problem," even though....yeah, nope. When someone says that treating their adrenal glands has helped them go from their bed to standing for 5 minutes a day and then back to bed...I am not sure I would get excited about that. I mean, yes, it is an improvement....but.....then they crash....yet again!!! No more 5 minute standing.

    I absolutely applaud those who keep trying. As they should and as I did for a long time. And I still do things to get better, just not the typical CFS protocol. As many know on here...I can now eat again due to a food allergy shot that I get once a month. A non FDA shot that comes from another country. And...it works.

    Ampligen seems to work but how many can afford it and can afford to pick up and move and be in an apartment and have the support needed to endure the side effects?

    So, yes...I am mad at the situation. I suppose I need to be rich and even then it might not work.

    JEN!!! Hey there!! I wonder how you are. You always shoot straight from the hip. Yes, I am sure there is a mold component. When I lived in San Jose, I was GREAT. Can't afford it though. What do I do? One of the reasons I can't leave, is my mom. She is 82 and I feel responsible for making sure she is ok. I am the only one who helps her. I am also scared to move, because I am not as well as you are. I can't work that much. I go from making hardly any money to more at times and I am scared to uproot without knowing anyone where I go. I don't do well with the unknown and a move, finding a new doctor, would feel like too much for me to handle. I live in a third floor walkup with no basement. In an apartment building. I have been in way worse than this. I am thinking of moving though and after this sinus infection, looking into it. SCARED though because I have felt better in this apartment more so than any other one on the East Coast. I

    BTW, I am outside of Philly. Not in NJ. I would love to meet that therapist though. I would love to see someone disabled. I am going to look him up.

    But yes, I would love to be in a warmer climate on the West coast. No humidity.

    Hurtingallthetimet...thank you. I know that I am not alone and it's nice to know and I appreciate your response.
     
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  14. No_more_pain

    No_more_pain A Lonely Pretend Writer

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    I hear the "sounds like you've lost hope" comment from friends & acqaintances (no therapist, here), and I'm tired of qualifying what I mean or how I feel. Because as you say - it's not a complete loss of hope, so much as a... dose of realistic thinking? Maybe that's how to put it.

    If I truly had no hope for anything my life, I highly doubt I'd still be here, having succumbed to the idea of tossing myself in front of a train or something. If anything, I'm still a bit too much of a hopeful spirit, it's just not always apparent at first or second glance.

    Do I hope that I'll someday feel better? Well... sure. But after more than 20 years? It's just not a realistic outlook anymore. I think it's probably more important to come to terms with where I am now, and what I can/can't do, rather than just hoping it'll change and let that be the driving force behind my life. I still hope for many things in my life, but all their contexts are (by necessity) altered. And it's frustrating! No doubt about that.

    I can't profess that I've come close to accepting it fully; much of my day to day fitfulness is really due to my still railing against it, somewhere inside of me. But it's usually due to outside influence. A critical comment directed at me about my life. A failure to meet someone's expectations. And so on.

    There ya go. Good for you. :)

    Even if I sometimes have trouble believing these words myself, there's nothing wrong at all with Life at a Slower Speed.

    Better gas mileage that way. ;)
     
  15. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I can totally understand all you're saying about your frustrations being with the situation itself.

    As far as seeking treatment it seems there are those who keep seeking out new things and trying all sorts of stuff, and those who do some things to manage but do not keep trying every single thing or simply can't afford to because of health, financial, or other reasons or those who try for years like you and then eventually stick with a few things and stay with that. I like seeing all sides of the experience here.

    You mentioned accepting the illness, and I do think that part of that is about the emotional aspect too, learning not just to live with the symptoms and the chronic nature of it all but all the emotional mess that can come with the experience. It's not easy and I think people sharing their experiences can help others feel less alone and can help illuminate things that we may not notice in our own experience till someone else mentions it, and also helps the person sharing.

    And I agree with No More Pain about the realism element. Realism and acceptance are not the same as giving up. We all have to find the approach and perspective that works for us with this illness and it's different for everyone.
     
  16. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Spit, I am pretty sure Dan Gottlieb writes a column for the Philadelphia Inquirer. Also, you could drive to see him say once a month and skype the other sessions, couldn't you? This is a guy who's been there--he writes beautifully about it. He would never point his finger at you and say, You seem very angry. You wouldn't have to explain. He's been angry...

    I understand where you're coming from, but the reason I left is I was way sicker than you! I thought I was dying. I didn't move from a thermarest mat on my floor (I had become so mcs I couldn't tolerate my bed any longer nor ANY bed, I kept trying different goddang beds, used, new, nothing worked, my doormen thought I must have bedbugs I moved so many mattresses in and out)...totally unable to work, with vertigo, leaning against the counter, no longer sitting at my desk, totally depressed, with horrible muscle cramps, weekly migraines, horrible wheezing, unable to breathe through my nose etc etc.

    If you want, you can come camping with us. I'll set up your tent, and we'll cook you meals. You can take a two week vacation. Offer stands. I always say you'll know in two weeks. We were thinking of camping on St. George's Island--it's a barrier island everyone says is beautiful, on the gulf coast, soon; or Ft. Clinch on the east coast. Florida is perfect right now but will be awful by late March:). Just let me know.
     
  17. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Here he is Spit:

    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/drdangottlieb/

    Monday, December 21, 2009
    It's time to take a break from writing

    For the last six months, I have struggled with whether or not to give up this column. I love my relationship with you the readers. I am honored by your trust when you write with your life stories and ask advice. And I treasure being put in the position of teacher.

    Being invited to share my thoughts and ideas by The Inquirer is something I have treasured for 15 years. But it is also hard work, time-consuming and sometimes stressful. So this may be my last column. And as of today, my thinking is no longer conflicted. The recent facts of my life helped clarify this decision for me.

    It started as a minor chest cold in October. But with quadriplegics, chest colds are never minor. That's because we don't have the muscles needed to cough properly. So after a week of benign neglect, followed by two weeks of antibiotics, my condition continued to get worse.

    Finally, I was admitted to Virtua Voorhees with a severe case of double pneumonia. By that time, I was terribly ill; every inbreath produced a lifeless cough as the fluids in the bottom of my lungs remained stagnant. Ten days later, after receiving wonderful care, I was discharged home to continue my recovery for the next several weeks. And today, as I regain my previous level of strength, I feel gratitude for each clear breath I take.

    At 63, I reflect on my life quite often. I think about what my life is about and what is most meaningful for me. But like most of us, I resist changes. Still, there are just some times, some events, that make the status quo terribly uncomfortable. And this is one of those times.

    Not only have I been ill, but yesterday was the 30th anniversary of my accident.

    For nearly half my life, my body has required extraordinary care. In return, it has kept me alive and vibrant through several near-death experiences, and every time (so far) I have returned to a state of health and gratitude.

    This body has allowed me to travel to many countries over three continents mostly in the last five years. For the first 10 years after my accident, when my health was quite volatile, I saw my body as an enemy, almost as a terrorist striking me down without warning. I feared and hated this body.

    But as things stabilized medically, I ignored my body while secretly resenting the demands it made. And over the last decade, my bladder has been requiring more care. I had an experience with a MRSA infection that almost took my life, and now this.

    Over these years, my relationship with my body has changed again. I have become grateful to this tired and broken carriage, and I care for it now not with resentment but with compassion.

    Just as I would for a fragile lover or partner, I care for my body as an act of love. I shift positions, increase my fluid intake and take my medication because I care. I meditate every day, and despite the fact that it is sometimes incredibly boring or inconvenient, I do so as an act of love for my body/mind.

    But I haven't been doing one thing for my body, and that is giving it the rest it needs. I have been allowing the loud voice of my thoughts and ideas to drown out the quiet voice inside.

    No, I am not going to retire, not by any stretch. I will still be doing most of what I always did, but I will be doing it more mindfully and with more care - and compassion.

    Knowing how my mind works, I am sure I will be writing an occasional column or commentary. And although I cannot answer every e-mail, I would love to hear from you at DrDanGottlieb@aol.com.

    How do I say goodbye to a column I have loved, to readers I feel a trusted and intimate relationship with, to editors who have mentored me, befriended me and taught me so much?

    Today I listen to that quiet voice that says "let go, rest, open yourself up to see what happens." And, who knows, one day that quiet voice might say: "Hey, Dan, don't you think you should be writing a column about this?"

    Please take care, my friends.
     
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  18. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    Wow...how beautifully written is that? What a writer and so sad. Really sad. I am so happy he travelled and was able to have a life. I am going to Google him and research how to get in touch with him. Voorhees isn't far at all. He may not want to talk due to his situation and age. Will see what I can find out. Thank you, Jen. Thank you.
     
  19. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I try to take this same approach too. So wonderful seeing it written out so beautifully.
     
  20. LaurelW

    LaurelW Senior Member

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    Utah
    I had a sinus infection for the whole month of November, and I've never been so angry in my life. I'm normal a pretty placid, calm, optimistic person in spite of some pretty severe CFS. But during that time, stuff that wouldn't normally keep me going longer than about 20 minutes just went on and on. Nothing like feeling like your forehead is in a vise day after day to make you really irritable! I called it "The Angry Cold." I hope I never have to go through that again! When I finally gave in and got antibiotics from the doctor, he prescribed such a high dose that I got really severe gut cramps for days. Sheesh!

    That being said, we have pretty huge reasons and every right to be angry about a lot of things.:Retro mad:
     

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