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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    How do these 2 studies relate to cfs/me.
    The first shows strep caused endocarditis and the other study showed an outbreak in china of pharyngitis from a viralent strep infection, both these werent undetected.
    Im not sure how you relate this back to cfs, if you could explain it that would be great.
  2. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Just Quickly,

    The first paper shows how viridans strep attacks and kills cells ..... put this in somebody's gut and you end up with leaky gut because of the same process, and an overstimulation of the nerves in the bowel causing a fibre optic transfer affect around the body. The same time, the nerves are being blasted with H2S which causes further damage to the cells and is a known neurotoxin. The Alpha hemolysis of viridans strep punches holes in the bowel, we are then poisoned by our own poo.

    The second paper shows that there are pathogenic strains of viridans strep in the community. The medical profession tells us this is not possible, so therefore doesn't identify it in the commercial lab tests. It is pathogenic strains of viridans strep that cause an inflammation and fires up the immune system ...... In particular, those of the Streptococcus Mitis group .....

    This is the undetectable infection ......
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    That's fine but relate it to cfs.......
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I am getting to the tying it all in .... but I first needed to justify the background ....

    Stay tuned ....
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  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    If anyone else wants to follow up on the attached papers they may find it easier via the PubMed pages. I found the PubMed page for the first paper by pasting the title in a search engine, and PubMed pages provide links to citing articles.
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  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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  7. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The undetectable infection 101: The battle of the immune system

    As I have previously presented, I have shown how streptococcus mitis group can be pathogens. Now, according to the literature, they live on the teeth and are rarely isolated in other locations. So why do all the bowel screens I have seen show streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis plus others which may also include lactobacillus, enterococcus and prevotella species? Let us get back to the way it should be ....

    Streptococcus that live on your teeth are some of the strongest surface adhesion bacteria in our body. They are also the some of the strongest biofilm formers in our body. That is why we have plaque and tartar build up on our teeth. The streptococcus hang onto the teeth, and others hang onto the strep. When this happens they produce hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen peroxide, otherwise known as bleach. This is probably a good thing for the teeth, the bad thing however is all the lactic acid that these bugs produce from sugars we eat ....

    Now these strep bugs on the teeth have a plasmid that is encoded with resistance to penicillin, macrolides and fluroquinolines, plus they are protected from these antibiotics as they are under a hard layer of plaque. So come in penicillin ..... kills off the local flora, Strep mitis has an opportunity to move off the teeth and into the mucous membranes. Once they have done this, they start forming biofilms on the mucous membranes and any enterococcus, staphylococcus, lactobacillus and a couple of others join in ......

    This is where the game changes, this causes a change in the ph and oxygen levels, and makes it difficult for any good bacteria in the area to survive. While this is happening it is bombarding the cells they are attached to with hydrogen peroxide. It is at this point if there are any pathogenic traits (they do have extracellular protease) that also starts attacking the cells.

    The first line of defense is the cells start firing back hydrogen peroxide, this is supposed to disable the pathogen and make it easier for the immune system to kill the invader. Unfortunately these bacteria metabolise the hydrogen peroxide and it therefore has no effect.

    The usual process of pro-inflammatory response happens which then attracts/develops antibodies. The only problem in all this is that I believe the antibodies are developed against our own epithelial cells as they have been made a target by the hydrogen peroxide burst.

    The next stage is the attack from the bacteria, they move into the now hole and their skins (LTA) stimulate inflammation, they may also excrete a cytolysin which further damages cells causing more inflammation and the war begins.

    As the war rages, the longer it rages, dead bacteria skins enter the bloodstream. Now the literature says 2 things. The first being the skins of Streptococcus (LTA) look exactly the same as the skins of e-coli (LPS) to the body and our immune system. The second thing the literature says is that interleukin-6 mixed with LPS has a toxic effect on the brain causing brain fog and cognitive dysfunction. I believe that the streptococcus LTA would therefore have the same effect.

    Now over time the war changes, toxins can enter the bloodstream at any point (doesn't have to be in the gut). But this happening in the gut is worse. The bacteria pump out lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. This is a neurotoxin and is poisonous to the mitochondria, and the lactic acid causes acidosis. The body is being poisoned by a cocktail of pro and anti inflammatory cytokines, dead bacteria, hydrogen sulphide, lactic acid and anything else that can enter through the damaged mucous membranes.

    These pro and anti inflammatory cytokines are great in the short term, but long term they have a nasty affect on the body. As part of this theory I suggest that pro inflammatory cytokines collect in our blood filter organs such as the thyroid, liver, kidneys, pancreas, cartilage and attract the epithelial killing antibodies resulting in the damage and ultimate dysfunction of those organs ...... And in the very long term, the development of cancers, arthritis, alzheimers and the like .......

    A couple of things, specifically to do with viruses, I believe you are all right, the viruses are involved, but I suggest they are a catalyst and they further complicate the infection, they may even be the reason for the disruption in the local flora, as has been pointed out viruses increase bacterial numbers in infection (thanks for pointing that out).

    Well, I have thrown it out there, my head is on the block :/ but i believe this is true and the way I acquired it, the way it has spread in my family and the fact that abx administered to target these bugs has a profound positive effect gives me the firm belief that this theory is headed in the right direction. ME is an infection from the normal flora .... The undetectable infection.

    The next part of the theory, I better address the ladies of the group as these are the most important ones, and yes there is an element of monthly cycles involved and I believe these monthly hormonal changes make it worse ....

    Remember where you saw this first......
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
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  8. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    OK Ladies ..... The undetectable infection 101: The fairer sex

    So you have these nasty Streptococcus mitis that have moved off the teeth and taken up residence in high numbers in your mouth. By whatever method some saliva makes it down to the vagina and transfers the bacteria. They work their way into the vagina and like all bugs, get trapped in the cervix. During that time when the hormones change, the normal vagina flora decreases and allows the pathogens to increase. If you are one of those poor dear ladies (like my wife) that suffer vaginitis, this is when it all starts to go nasty. It is also at this point where the bad bacteria numbers increase putting extra stress on the immune system. The vagina is flushed and then things settle down for a couple of weeks. If you don't have vaginitis, these bugs cause a very discreet change in the vagina discharge that you may not have even noticed.

    Because of the fact that the vagina is relatively close to the anus, it is at this point when these bacteria increase in numbers that they are then able to move into the bowel, again via mucous transfer or leakage from the vagina. And I believe this is why that (1) More women have IBS than men and (2) More women suffer from ME/Fibromyalgia than men. Basically ladies, hormonal change increases the number of bacteria over a much larger surface area than us fellas have making the disease a lot more severe.

    I would not be surprised, knowing how i have been up to the point that this moved into my bowel, that there are a lot of men (and women) out there suffering from this condition but because it is not in their bowel, their symptoms are only mild, and therefore never get diagnosed.

    This is the undetectable infection and I believe that those who are currently diagnosed are only the tip of the iceberg.... I believe a pandemic is upon us and the cost to sufferers and the community is going to be horrendous.
    rosie26 likes this.
  9. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Excess tartar is one of the symptoms of the infection I noticed.

    I have seen tartar fall off the teeth when the immune system is working better again by using an immune modulator.

    In my opion you see an effect of the pathogen I suspect and conclude it is the cause.

    I prefer to strenghen the immune system. Trying to treat all the opportunists is mopping with the tap open.






    .
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  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    G'day mate .... sorry, excess tartar is not a specific symptom ...... What I am saying is that the infection is biofilms caused by the same bugs that create tartar .... They have moved off the teeth and invaded the mucous membranes ......
  11. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The undetectable infection 101: Antibiotics

    As I have stated previously, it is my belief that penicillin usage was the initial cause of this problem. But before I explain why, I want to talk about the newer medications macrolides (erythromicn, azithromycin etc) and fluroquinolines (cipro etc.) Streptococcus mitis species have a genetic coding that makes them naturally resistant to these antibiotics. Studies have shown that up to 85% of recipients of a macrolide show strains of viridan strep with high levels of resistance after only 7 days of antibiotics. Fluroquinolines have been known to fail when treating streptococcus even while the patient is taking them.

    So let us get back to how all this started ..... Penicillin acts on the cell wall of bacteria which prevents them from dividing and ultimately ends in the bacteria's death. Now what these bacteria have been able to do is evolve and be able to shed their skin when under attack from penicillin and become what is known as an L-form and can happily survive the antibiotic treatment. Further methods of surviving penicillin have been through introduction of mutations in genes encoding penicillin-binding proteins.

    Now keep in mind that these bacteria normally live in plaque on your teeth. So when antibiotics are used they are protected in their biofilm and may only get a small exposure, not enough to kill them but enough for them to build resistance. Further use of penicillin has the effect of killing off species that are beneficial allowing these supposedly (non)pathogenic strains to take hold.

    If the flora is messed up too much by antibiotics (or as has been pointed out to me a viral attack), OR you receive a highly concentrated dose of these bacteria through bodily fluid exchange, you end up with a disbyosis (imbalance) of the microbial flora in areas such as the mouth, throat, urogenital tract and the gut. The species that are the biggest problem produce hydrogen peroxide and super oxides (O2) which creates an environment that is too oxygenated for anaerobes and therefore reduces their numbers or wipes them out completely. You then have a predominately faculative anaerobe microbiota.

    Personally, the term disbyosis doesn't truly explain what is going on ..... It is an infection ..... It is an overgrowth of bacteria that are (as I have demonstrated previously) pathogenic.

    As I stated previously, Enterococcus faecalis, streptococcus mitis (esp. sanguinis/parasanguinis) and some lactobacillus (vaginalis is one of them) species form biofilms and start bombarding the epithelial cells of the gut, throat, genitals which then causes symptoms like leaky gut, prostatitis, vaginitis, urethritis, chronic sore throat, mouth ulcers, nose/sinusitis and sore eyes..... just to name a few. Visible inflammation usually only shows in those people who have a genetic deficiency in their interleukin 10 cytokine, or those with an exceptionally large infection.

    And yet the lab will always report ...... 'Normal flora' ......

    This is the undetectable infection ....
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  12. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    I am enjoying reading your theory elph.:)
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  13. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    me too :)
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  14. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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  15. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    I'm certain the combination of ampicillin, amoxicillin and keflex caused the overgrowth of strep in me. However, mine is in my duodenum and mouth. A culture of my mouth bacteria showed extraordinarily high levels of strep years ago which should have been my first clue. And perhaps this is why my duodenum has an overgrowth.

    But if antiobiotics cause the resistance in the first place, how does one rid of it (including in the duodenum and mouth)
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  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    HI GP,

    There is an element that says you take a short course of antibiotics, and then live on their supplements and a low carb diet and you may achieve a 75% recovery ..... while they get rich ......

    Personally, as stated, this is an infection and it has a 3 part answer:

    1. Build the immune system - most are already doing this
    2. Eradicate the pathogen - systemic antibiotics
    3. re-stablish the good bugs - Drink poo and FMT .... (eek)

    Alternatively, start lobbying drug companies for a highly specific and targeted antibiotic .... I reckon it is worth the effort now commercially....

    There are other options but they don't fix everything yet .... And I am concentrating on that now ......

    The treatment needs to be affordable and mass produced ......

    To fast track this .... there is strong grounds for mis-diagnosis and a class action against the medical profession, if you are in America ...... Some of the papers I used to track this down are over 20 years old .... The psychiatrists have been to blame, the labs have been to blame, the infectious disease people .... The list goes on .....

    I looked into going legal here in Australia, so I could bring this out in the open, but the doctors are protected and if it is accepted by the majority, then it doesn't matter what the science says, opinion wins .......

    The undetectable infection is also the unconceivable and the unconvinceable infection .......
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  17. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    My name is Darren Elphinstone, I live in Tasmania, Australia, I have known of this for over 2 years and I can't get the medical profession to listen.....

    I have watched this spread to my wife and youngest daughter and that has been the greatest, the most gut wrenching torment any man could go through ......

    I have met whole families struck down with this, they have lost everything, some even their self respect .....

    But still, there is no infection!!!

    They are trying to sue me for speaking out .....

    They called me a fruit loop, they were disturbed that I had gone so far in depth with my research ...

    I am disturbed with the fact that I had to!!
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  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    There are scientific papers that state these things, and are not promoting any brands. There are many individual sufferers who are trying these things and experiencing substantial benefit. I am one of these, as is detailed in my profile, where you will see that I am not promoting any brands either, although I sometimes recommend a brand. I have no financial interest in any of them, and lived in dire poverty for many years, only relieved by the maturation of pensions this year.

    The doctors cannot be sued successfully if they are just following guidelines drawn up by their governments, especially if failing to do so would risk disciplinary action.

    I agree about a certain school of psychiatrists though. Governments are also to blame for drafting incorrect guidelines.
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  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Most of us can't get the medical profession to listen, myself included. There are threads about it. Here is one.
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  20. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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