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The Undetectable Infection

mellster

Marco
Messages
805
Location
San Francisco
I am already heading down that path .... I have an 8 year old daughter they won't treat here.

I have gone into the old eastern block and found a facility that agrees my theory is possible and is prepared to investigate and treat it .... BUT that is all I am prepared to say .....
Sounds good. When you can reveal more and are looking into funding or web-initiatives, feel free to shoot me a message. I am a seasoned web programmer and also trade in biotech mainly. I am definitely interested in any theories/approaches that bypass serum studies and look into tissue biopsies (and additionally screening for "normal" or "opportunistic" pathogens) instead.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
What about those that don't have any of these symptoms?

It seems over 20% of the population has a genetic abnormality in their interleukin 10 cytokine. This causes the inflammation to be constantly visible and the severity depends on the abnormality level.

So just because there is no visible inflammation, it doesn't mean it isn't there as the body is still producing pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory responses.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Sounds good. When you can reveal more and are looking into funding or web-initiatives, feel free to shoot me a message. I am a seasoned web programmer and also trade in biotech mainly. I am definitely interested in any theories/approaches that bypass serum studies and look into tissue biopsies (and additionally screening for "normal" or "opportunistic" pathogens) instead.

No dramas and thanks .... I don't need money, I back my own theories ...... It won't be at least until the northern summer ....

I gather that it may be a bit cold this time of year in countries that used to be behind the iron curtain ...
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
How could it be detected or researched?
tissue biopsy only?

I am targeting a couple of bugs initially ..... These are plaque/tartar forming bugs that should not be found anywhere other than your teeth .... So a swab/scrape and then culture will show if they are present at other locations. Unfortunately only research labs can operate like this, commercial labs can't/won't identify non pathogens ...
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
@Elph I am wondering what type of research is needed that would be able to detect this.Would Lipkins work or Invest in ME work have a good chance if this turned out to be true?

They may do .... but I can't find anywhere in the literature where a viridans strep antibody has been isolated to date .... particularly not the bugs that I would like targeted ......

Streptococcus pneumonia may be the exception .....

They just haven't been looking at these bugs ........
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
And just so you know how I believe this all started, I believe it has been caused by penicillin ......

Macrolide use has made it worse .....

So now I have opened that can, that will have to be my next installment ..... may not be until after I get back from New Zealand, which will be next weekend .....

See how my world goes .....
 
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Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
And just so you know how I believe this all started, I believe it has been caused by penicillin ......

Macrolide use has made it worse .....

So now I have opened that can, that will have to be my next installment ..... may not be until after I get back from New Zealand, which will be next weekend .....

See how my world goes .....

So if you want a conspiracy theory and the reason why you can't get research funding ..... start looking at the drug companies that make these abx .....
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
I wondered if you might say antibiotics.
specifically penicillin tho?
I have had times probably like a lot of others wondering if antibiotics could be part of the problem
but I think there could be a lot of plausible arguments for it to not be the case as well.
I wonder what people think around this.
I had penicillin once after my ME developed and I was ver very bad on it.I had to stop taking it.
I hadn't had that experience with penicillin before ME but that does not mean cause or effect.
its interesting Elph:)
female prevalence i still feel is a very important factor as well.
you should just put your whole theory out there Elph people will either take it on board or not you dont have anything to loose lots of people have lots of theoryies if people like it they will get behind it. ME has nothing to loose in this area.:)
 
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Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
I got a lot on the go, so I just can't sit down and type for hours .... and there is a lot to it ..... although the concept is simplistic ..... I am getting there ...
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
The Undetectable Infection 101 - Bacterial Pathogenesis

I will leave the why they become pathogenic until last, so let us look at what they do to our mucous membranes.

We will look at the really nasty one first, that being enterococcus faecalis. The most-cited virulence factors are aggregation substance, surface adhesins, sex pheromones, lipoteichoic acid, extracellular superoxide production, the lytic enzymes gelatinase and hyaluronidase, and the toxin cytolysin.

Gelatinase allows the bacteria to dissolve the epithelial layer of the mucous membranes, giving it access to the cells below, hyaluronidase completely lyses the cells in which the enterococcus enters. This completely dissolves the cells and allows the bacteria to move between cells, it basically allows the bacteria to tunnel between the cells.

So here I present the first revelation, that being anemia. If you are colonized with pathogenic enterococcus it is highly likely you are anemic. Cytolysin is a neurotoxin that completely destroys hemoglobin which results in an oversupply of free iron on the mucous membrane surface. In the gut, this can result in an e-coli overgrowth, and can also leave a metallic taste in your mouth when these bugs are most active. The super oxide production creates an environment that supports the overgrowth of other faculative anaerobes such as streptococcus and lactobacillus and lowering the levels of anaerobes which are required for a healthy microbione. Enterococcus are also prolific lactic acid producers.

Streptococcus species are either alpha, beta or gamma hemolytic. Viridans streptococcus is either alpha or gamma hemolytic which means they either partially affect red blood cells or they don't affect red blood cells. Beta hemolysis occurs with group A, B and C, which are the recognized pathogenic strep and like pathogenic enterococcus damage/kill cells and macrophages and kill hemoglobin cells. Streptolysin O and Streptolysin S are the toxins associated with Beta Hemolysis. Pathogenic strains also contribute to superoxide production which changes the aerobe:anaerobe ratio.

The undetectable infection therefore contains species of viridans streptococcus which are only partially or alpha hemolytic. The streptolysin toxins produced such as pneumolysin, Mitolysin etc. only damage cells which results in a non pyogenic (non pus forming) inflammation. As with enterococcus, strep species endotoxin is lipoteichoic acid, which is their spiky skins. This is the second part of the inflammation process and as the bacteria dies, their skins can enter the bloodstream resulting in inflammation in other areas. Streptococcus are also prolific lactic acid producers.

When pathogenic strains are in abundance they create an environment which is toxic to other beneficial strains. The blood agar looks the same but in fact the microbione has changed. But to the lab culture there is no way to identify this. No pathogens are present, so normal flora is returned.

Streptococcus sanguinis and parasanguinis are 2 species that consistently show up in stool samples of people I know who are diagnosed with ME/Fibromyalgia. These species are the cause of dental plaque and are known cause of endocarditis, meningitis and bacteremia. According to the literature these are rarely isolated away from teeth. The streptolysin from these and the mitis group strains is very similar to streptococcus pneumonia, which causes respiratory tract infection.

Therefore if you are one of those people who suffer from chronic sore throat or swollen neck glands etc. it is highly likely that it is pathogenic strains from the streptococcus sanguinis and/or mitis group ... that is where I would start..

This is the undetectable infection ....

I was tested 2 years ago for streptococcus antibodies in my blood but it came back negative. However I did have 6 Herpes type viruses over the range. Also I have had 2 Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis done over 5 years and neither of these showed up any streptoccocus or entercoccus. On the other hand I do have an almost permanent sore, red throat which often has white ulcers on it and a right eye which gets very irritated, red and swollen and pours with tears. Antihistamine drops do help though.

Pam
 
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bel canto

Senior Member
Messages
246
This may not be at all relevant, but does anyone else remember having a lot of penicillin as a kid? In the early 60's, we were given penicillin shots for every cold, sore throat, etc. I've always wondered if it had any long-term impact.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hi Pam,

if your doctor calls the ulcers apthous or 'canker sores' then they are most likely viridans strep. Not sure of stool test you have done, if it identifies and counts the bacteria then that is good, if it was a regular lab test they would only have looked for pathogens, and strep would not be reported.

Viridans strep doesn't produce regular strep antibodies, but DNase B can be found occasionally.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
This may not be at all relevant, but does anyone else remember having a lot of penicillin as a kid? In the early 60's, we were given penicillin shots for every cold, sore throat, etc. I've always wondered if it had any long-term impact.

With what I am suggesting, it is highly relevant ......
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Hi Pam,

if your doctor calls the ulcers apthous or 'canker sores' then they are most likely viridans strep. Not sure of stool test you have done, if it identifies and counts the bacteria then that is good, if it was a regular lab test they would only have looked for pathogens, and strep would not be reported.

Viridans strep doesn't produce regular strep antibodies, but DNase B can be found occasionally.

The stool test was through Genova Diagnostics who are quite forward thinking regarding latest evidence of cause of illnesses. My GP just looks at my throat and gives me antibiotics but these never get rid of it completely and I have difficulty tolerating most antibiotics. I find that a mixture of herbs like olive leaf extract, thyme and sage helps my throat together with echinacea, doesn't stop if from being red and angry looking but stops it hurting. BTW This happens all year but I am not so aware of it during the summer months.

I also had a huge amount of penicilin as a kid because of frequent sore throats! I am now 65 years old but first got sick with 2 weeks of flu from which things were never the same way back in 1979.

Pam
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hi Pam,

That is a commercial lab, they do not consider viridans strep a pathogen so a positive result will be returned as 'normal flora'.

Everything you have presented, the tests you have done, supports the undetectable infection theory.

It would be resistant to the antibiotics you are taking orally, so there is no point wasting your money.

Cheers
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
While I am putting this all together, some of you may get some insight into the dangers of viridans streptococcus from this paper.

It shows how it attacks cells .... thus put them in your gut, they blast holes in it which causes leaky gut ....
 

Attachments

  • Invasive Viridans strep.pdf
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Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
And here is a paper that shows an outbreak of a mutant viridans strep causing toxic shock ....

This shows that supposedly non-pathogenic strep can become pathogens and cause disease .... such as long term sore throats, pneumonia etc.
 

Attachments

  • Strep mitis toxic shock.pdf
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