The Undetectable Infection

[Seven7]

I get very white tongue but no dryness. The stronger the crash the whiter the tongue (I was negative for candida)

 

[gregh286]

yea my tongue heavy and coated...@Elph68 had coated geographic tongue as well.
neg. for candida also.
I can clear the tongue by heavy brushing X3 a day...but it just masks the problem that exists in gut...etc

 

[msf]

Yes, I have that - I think there is a simple explanation: The crash is a result of increased LPS in the bloodstream, leading to reduced Vasopressin, causing you to urinate more and have a dry throat. De Meirleir talks about Vasopressin in one of his videos.

 

[MeSci]

Yes, I have that - I think there is a simple explanation: The crash is a result of increased LPS in the bloodstream, leading to reduced Vasopressin, causing you to urinate more and have a dry throat. De Meirleir talks about Vasopressin in one of his videos.

Do you have a link that explains LPS reducing vasopressin? I have been looking for the cause of that, and also solute diuresis, for a long time.

There are numerous threads on polyuria, with a range of theories.

I have looked at it in some of my blogposts, e.g. this short one.

 

[msf]

No, sorry, I was looking for one myself to back up my claim, but there don´t seem to be any studies of Vasopressin in a chronic LPS model.

 

[MeSci]

No, sorry, I was looking for one myself to back up my claim, but there don´t seem to be any studies of Vasopressin in a chronic LPS model.

I wouldn't be interested in a model if it were a non-human animal model, which is the usual meaning of 'model' in medical science. I would only be interested in human research. Animal 'models' have such poor predictive power that they are worse than useless - worse in that they lead researchers down blind alleys, delay scientific progress, often lead to treatments with serious side-effects, waste money and harm animals.

 

[msf]

So you would like humans to be adminstered with LPS for an extended period of time?

Personally, I don´t think the response to LPS will differ dramatically between animals, since this must be an incredibly primitive adaptation. I just looked again at a study of the effects of LPS on sleep in humans, where they compared them with the animal studies (rat and rabbit) and found the same pattern of low doses of LPS increasing sleep and high levels decreasing it, with some animals being more tolerant than others.

 

[gregh286]

I have seen other forums some believe its a form of adrenal congestion or inflamed adrenal prehaps.
Would sway that way in my case nearly always get an ache in the left kidney area at the same time.
Maybe someday we will know.

 

[msf]

Vasopressin is controlled by the HPA axis.

 

[gregh286]

Yes, I have that - I think there is a simple explanation: The crash is a result of increased LPS in the bloodstream, leading to reduced Vasopressin, causing you to urinate more and have a dry throat. De Meirleir talks about Vasopressin in one of his videos.

LPS is created by the breakdown of fats?
So lps should increase on stone age diets.

 

[msf]

No, they are part of the outer membrane of gram-negative bacteria.

 

[MeSci]

So you would like humans to be adminstered with LPS for an extended period of time?

Personally, I don´t think the response to LPS will differ dramatically between animals, since this must be an incredibly primitive adaptation. I just looked again at a study of the effects of LPS on sleep in humans, where they compared them with the animal studies (rat and rabbit) and found the same pattern of low doses of LPS increasing sleep and high levels decreasing it, with some animals being more tolerant than others.

No, but I would not like it to be done to other sentient creatures either.

There are many ways to carry out human-relevant research. You can look at cells in vitro. You can look at patients, including anonymised clinical records. You can look at materials ex vivo (e.g. faecal matter, blood, urine). You can use a range of imaging methods.

If you do a quick internet search for 'LPS human' you will find several hits of interest.

I have outlined some arguments on why differences matter more than similarities in my blog here.

 

[gregh286]

No, they are part of the outer membrane of gram-negative bacteria.

Thanks msf.
Any rationale why they should increase..or its an increase.in gram negative bacteria in general?
Apologies in advance if questions are dopey.

 

[msf]

I know you aren´t happy with how they made this finding, but it is an amazing finding (from the Wikipedia article on LPS): Humans are much more sensitive to LPS than other animals (e.g., mice). A dose of 1 µg/kg induces shock in humans, but mice will tolerate a dose up to a thousand times higher.[17] This may relate to differences in the level of circulating natural antibodies between the two species.[18

 

[msf]

I wish I was a mouse, though not one being injected with massively high levels of LPS in a lab.

 

[msf]

I think leaky gut is probably part of it.

 

[MeSci]

Vasopressin is controlled by the HPA axis.

That's right. And the HPA axis appears to be very much involved in ME.

 

[gregh286]

I think leaky gut is probably part of it.

Yea would go with that.
Had a.leaky gut test done some time ago right on upper boundary of "leakiness"
Top 5% of population.
Interesting.

 

[MeSci]

I think leaky gut is probably part of it.

Leaky gut, LPS, etc., have been widely discussed already on Phoenix Rising, notably on this forum.

 

[rosie26]

Does anyone know what we could be trying to decrease levels of LPS in the blood?