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The Undetectable Infection

Messages
22
Mark, thank you for those tips. I've got a note to look into Monolaurin now and find out what all I need to do for biofilms. I'm also unaware of anyone that can help properly identify this kind of thing. BioScreen testing is so helpful for the gastrointestinal tract. But every urinary tract test(s) or throat swab I've had done is 'normal', and I can assure you that it's anything but. Fortunately, I haven't been told it's all in my head, yet.
 
Messages
59
Mark, thank you for those tips. I've got a note to look into Monolaurin now and find out what all I need to do for biofilms. I'm also unaware of anyone that can help properly identify this kind of thing. BioScreen testing is so helpful for the gastrointestinal tract. But every urinary tract test(s) or throat swab I've had done is 'normal', and I can assure you that it's anything but. Fortunately, I haven't been told it's all in my head, yet.

No worries Chuck, please do look into the other biofilm busters too from the link/elsewhere also. The other paper l sent describes how difficult it is to eradicate these pathogenic colonies from the mouth/prostate. There's been many success stories however, almost all through perseverance.

Cipro caused me more harm than good, l had no idea at the time what a bad choice it was. these days l do as much research as possible, prior to a protocol, then stick with it to measure success. I mention this as the Cipro gp told me she was lacking in knowledge (maybe like yours?) At the time l wanted relief so l just ran at it. i can't know your exact situation, but be as sure as you can with whatever he comes up with or wait.

The Chinese direct application of antibiotic/herbs based on thorough work up appear better than any Australian option. I'd truly love to be proven otherwise though.
 
Messages
22
Hi Darren,

Thanks for your reply and updated protocol.

I've looked into the Chinese clinics offering 4-6 week continuous daily abx and herbal therapy, whilst also treating your partner. The Chinese take diagnosis and thorough treatment seriously, something unheard of and unavailable in Australia.

The insertion of milk kefir grains, compared with fmt is the safer bet, imo. My doc thinks the fecal matter should be taken from elderly healthy people as opposed to young healthy people, as "one day" an unknown illness may still pop up in a younger body.

Dom, a Kefir guru in south australia has a protocol which cured his ulcerative colitis. You've probably seen it/using it? I've tried posting it twice but this site blocks it as spam. It definitely isn't.

I'm currently stockpiling grains for this protocol.

I've read on this site about the benefits of resistant starch and it appears an excellent way to "bus in" good bugs into the colon. Going direct and avoiding the stomach altogether, as you are with kefir injections, ensures good bugs best transit to the prostate also.

Colloidal silver is definitely making a difference, as is allimax (expensive) and monolaurin. My research indicates these would bolster abx therapy also. Am still taking gse and have just added candex, nac and quercetin. Will update if they are positive.

Cheers
Mark

Mark, what is the Chinese clinic/s that do this? My partner is half Malaysian-Chinese and we've talked about a trip to China. Let's do this!
 
Messages
22
@Elph68 and @Mark37, I'm looking at some test results.

My first BioScreen was conducted in August 2013 prior to presenting to CDD, where I then underwent FMT in February 2014. In August 2013, I was of the opinion candida albicans was playing a role in my health issues because previous treatment with fluconazole had rendered me "cured" for 3-4 weeks, and beyond that I didn't know much about modulating the gut. Anyway, in August 2013, my BioScreen had an overgrowth of S. Parasanguinis, S. Salvirarius, Rothia Mucilaginosa, Bifidobacterium and an undergrowth of Lactobacilli. Not good, but not as bad as after.

After rounds of antibiotics administered by CDD (Vancomycin and Rifaximin in September 2013, and then Metronidazole and Vancomycin in January 2014, followed by 10 transplants in February 2014, I was left with the results that I recently posted. It actually appears to have made things a lot worse, in the sense that the BioScreen results are worse, and also that my symptoms haven't abated which is the obvious sign of whether things have/are helping.

I'm fairly confident I'm going to need some antibiotics to start being able to fix this, but I won't be rushing into FMT at CDD anytime soon. I might consider a donor I test myself but then I think using kefir enemas might be the better option. My apprehension with antibiotics is getting the right combination and the right dosages and the right duration.

Do you guys know how to get tested to determine what's lurking in the prostate so treatment can be more targeted?

Based on my BioScreen results, my assumption is that S. Parasanguinis is involved because E. Faecalis wasn't overgrown prior to FMT. In fact, prior to FMT it didn't register on my BioScreen. This stuff is tricky to figure out with certainty.
 
Messages
59
http://www.prostatitischina.com/index.html

https://www.cureprostatitis.org/

http://www.prostatitis3d-cure.com/clinic.html

Hi Chuck,

A short list of sites I've explored. There's also a chap called Falconio (in the Philippines) mentioned on a few blogs.

Parts of these sites can read like late night commercials...but hang in, there's quality info and informative demonstration of what this infection is about/how to cure it.

Not sure why no such clinics exist in Australia. Perhaps they'd disrupt a cozy cartel or maybe there's a real possibility these clinics could become superbug factories into the future.

Testimonials are encouraging, verifying authenticity is difficult. I've read stories of men cheated by scam clinics and claims of worsening prostatitis afterwards. Anything is possible, so due diligence is a must!

Outside your own research, perhaps your doc/partners dad could check within their medical networks to help verify a clinics integrity? Unfortunately Bioscreen couldn't assist me with this.

If you think you've exhausted all avenues for testing/treatment in Aus, I'd take an experienced clinic that deals with this everyday, all year, for many years with a successful track record over a gp/"specialist" with limited knowledge and best guess antibiotic roulette. Which may also make the case worse, particularly if it's candida.

Australia is very conservative with testing, I've had no luck getting beyond a blood, single cup urine and stool test. Identifying very little. Bastardos may reside in the prostate/testes and not show up on a stool test.

Personally, I'd look into overseas for better analysis /identification and more reliable treatment. perhaps email those clinics with your story and see how they respond. Challenge them. Some of them appear to test for a huge range of bacteria/yeast/virus and parasites. analysing seminal, prostate fluids or tissues - imagine that!! I also appreciate they acknowledge there may be unidentifiable pathogens causing harm. Something lazily written off as nonbacterial prostatitis closer to home.

I truly hope ccd in Sydney has provided assistance with a repair protocol for you?

The kefir grain/tea injections have helped me considerably. I'm feeling noticeable changes. I'm now doing this every few days, as things are further settling down. At this stage I'm happy to at least control it.

Keep with the Kefir milk and consider eating kefir water grains - lots of live lacto for you! They rip up candida and will disrupt or see off many pathogenic bacteria strains. Kombucha (some men have sworn this alone cured prostatitis) and fermented veg everyday is a given for me. This path is slower but my situation calls for this approach.

Mark
 
Messages
59
Chuck,

you mentioned 3-4 weeks remission on fluc, well l think this is a must read:

http://naturalcandidacleansing.com/?redirect=false

Here's a quote:
"Natural candida cleansing seems to be a mystery in this modern day and age and candida has become a silent epidemic around the world. Modern day doctors are not trained in this condition or in any of its related diseases that it can cause. They are so rapped up into the mindset of bacteria and viruses being the cause of all disease, that they have no idea that it can cause so many health problems when it gets out of control.
These problems can include neurological and nervous system disorders, bone and joint problems, cardiovascular problems, skin disorders, ear, nose, and throat disorders, urinary and vaginal infections, kidney disorders, eye problems, respiratory infections, and of course as everyone knows, intestinal disorders. There are also more and more doctors who believe these fungi cause cancer and from what I have read, they might be right. These problems are so different, and cover such a broad range of health problems, that most doctors just can't seem to put it all together and come up with the right diagnosis.candida-albicans

If they do diagnose candida, they prescribe the most common anti-fungal known as Diflucan for a short amount of time and expect the patient to be cured. In many cases they are indeed cured, but most often it is only for a month or two. Then the candida comes roaring back stronger than ever and has built a resistance to the Diflucan. The second or third time the Diflucan begins to become ineffective and the patient is told it's all in his/her head and a prescription is written for Prozac or some other anti-depressant drug. "

I honestly don't know what's afflicting any of us, but I've read enough about candida to know it's hard to beat and it's damage underestimated. I suspect a combination of bastardos are at play not necessarily one pathogen. Your body may have been handling eg. Candida for years, then an bug enters and whilst that battle rages the candida steps up and goes systemic.

Did any of the antibiotic treatment give you relief?

Mark
 
Messages
22
Hey Mark, thanks for this information - it's very, very helpful. Thank you :)

Umm, the antibiotics never gave me full relief on their own. But it's hard for me to say that they didn't assist me in some way. The relief that came while taking fluconazole was following some significant antibiotic therapy, so I think as you say, it could be multiple pathogens at play - one of which is candida/fungus-related. More recently, about 8 months ago, I was given itraconazole (Sporanox) to see if that had any impact as it is stronger than fluconazole, but all that did was cause some mild non-lasting hepatic damage. I have to admit, my diet while on itraconazole was nothing to write home about - I literally ate whatever, whenever, I wanted, with the exception of alcohol. I didn't drink during this period. I read elsewhere that a man was cured of fungal prostatitis using a combination of oral terbinafine and itraconazole, however I was told by two docs that they are known to interact with one another and cause cardiac issues - so who knows who to trust on that one?

Part of what I miss and what my partner misses too are aspects of our old lifestyle. I don't miss hangovers, but I do miss not being able to eat/drink more freely/socially. That's harder than the symptoms or even managing them, I think. The whole dealing with everyone else who doesn't understand or has a limited capacity for empathy, but an infinite capacity for unsolicited medical knowledge. I don't know about you - but I've received some absolutely outlandish suggestions from some otherwise very well-educated people. All are well-intentioned in my case, which is a positive, but their intent doesn't make it any less frustrating.

I like your approach about the kefir injections, dietary modifications and trying to crowd out gut bad bags. Especially since the prostate is a well of simple sugars, then modifying diet will play some role on prostate function, whether it's confirmed in the literature or not. I'm also hesitant to throw serious antibiotics at an "undiagnosed" problem. I know I have one, but without clear diagnosis, or rather, without a clear pathogenic agent identified, I don't want to treat on assumptions or educated guesses. Not yet, anyway...

On this front, I've read about rifaximin and VSL 3 probiotic being used for treatment of chronic bacterial prostatitis. After 12-months follow-up, those who were treated with the antibiotic and probiotic combination, had better bowel and bladder function compared to control. This was only published in 2014, so by the time a urologist sees it, who knows when that will be.

The urologists I've seen are beyond hopeless. The first one conducted two cystoscopies, a urodynamic study, other tests, and all was "normal" but I was advised that my prostate was slightly enlarged on one or two separate examinations, suggesting something was abnormal. The first one eventually said that he couldn't help me anymore, was puzzled, and referred me to a physiotherapist to work on my pelvic floor muscles which he said had tightened. The physiotherapist told me, upon hearing my story, that it was no surprise things had tightened up because I'd been experiencing severe diarrhoea for months, and after working through things with me said it wasn't even nearly as tight as the urologist had claimed. All things considered, this first urologist did have a kind bedside manner and he wasn't rude.

The second urologist was an outright d--khead. I only saw him for two appointments. He was rough during his examinations, and he acted like he had no f--ks left to give when speaking to me. I spent all of 5 minutes during two consultations in his clinic, and was charged greater than $500 for both, and prescribed two different strong antibiotics each time. I didn't take either of them, as this was post-FMT and despite my poor FMT results (detailed below), I didn't want to mess things up further by blindly taking antibiotics. Even if they are the right ones, something about the way they were given to me - "Try these, they might help. I don't know. Could be bad for you, I don't know. Do what you think is best" - makes me think not taking them might be the better option at this stage.

Centre for Digestive Diseases (CDD, Sydney) were unsatisfactory for me. They do excellent work for those suffering Clostridium difficile infection and indeed this saves many lives, and they report excellent results treating a range of illnesses, including, but not limited to inflammatory and irritable bowel diseases and syndromes. However, when I first presented to them, they were not interested in either my comprehensive digestive stool analysis, or my BioScreen, which had 2-3 species of overgrown bacteria, presence of yeasts detected, and seemed to look at me and say, 'Yep, we can fix this/you'. They immediately prescribed vancomycin and rifaximin, and I took them. In many ways, the clinic's reputation precedes them and so I took them without hesitation. I didn't get better.

Within six months, I was having 10 FMTs there. I left thousands of dollars poorer and with a larger Strep spp. overgrowth, and more gut imbalances than I first presented with, and most of the same symptoms. Add to that the depression which accompanies a failed treatment protocol and I wasn't in particularly high spirits. I'm young (under 30), and after months of keeping this to one side, I've recently ramped up my efforts for either: A) diagnosis and treatment or B) conservative management (i.e. kefir enemas, not FMT; "natural" antibiotics, not ciprofloxacin, as an example), and C) sensible symptom management (low-dose sleeping pills, when necessary).

At the moment, the "doing nothing" approach is and has impacted on my quality of life, so I've taken matters into my own hands a bit. And, I have to say, both your and Elph68's information, along with a few others on this forum, has been invaluable and I'm indebted to the collective research of others.
 
Messages
59
@Elph68 @chuck

This site has been made by a cured prostatitis sufferer. He details the familiar tribulations many of us are suffering. He includes a pathogen library and importantly reviews clinics internationally.
His 8 minute video describing his situation/the failed western approach/reasons pathogens are unidentified was worth watching.

I've linked a review he's made of a Chinese clinic that has been favoured by other blogs. Man l wish there was something more reliable than distilling information from the kindness of strangers.

https://www.sexualhealthclinics.org...is-infertility-treatment-clinic-in-china.html

Elph l'm aware you're in contact with China/Georgia. How's it going? I may go with Georgia as the phage therapy is more suitable for treating my family. Isolating the pathogens is the difficulty here and the extraordinarily high cost means l get one shot, if at all. Im loathe to treat on speculation, it's way too costly.

Chuck, without kids involved, the Chinese option appears preferable as partners (even without obvious symptoms) can be treated, obviously preventing reinfection.
 
Messages
59
Here's a (long) reply from 3d clinic in China. This option isn't cheap, but appears sound. I'm interested in feedback please.

Thank you for inquiring of our 3D prostatitis treatment.


Regarding your son, we need see what pathogens you have, and then we can give you suggestions regarding your son.

3D Prostatitis Treatment is suitable for your condition.We believe we can cure your prostatitis completely.

We recommend you receive our 3D prostatitis treatment. Regarding the treatment time and the costs, please see that in Our Recommendations and The Price Options. If you have some complex prostate condition, such as prostate significant enlargment, the volume of enlarged prostate is more than 40ml, benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), and prostate cancer,etc,you can only choose Option(1). Please confirm your treatment option with us.

Our clinics are located in Changsha and Xiangtan City,Hunan Province, China. We have not opened a branch clinic in other countries.If you want to receive our 3D Treatment you must come to china.

*Your Condition *

According to your email, we believe you are suffering from prostatitis,enlarged prostate,genitourinary infections and/or other prostate disease. Prostatitis is usually caused by a variety of pathogens. There may be blockages,calcification and enlarged formed in your prostate,pathogens are hiding inside the blocked areas causing chronic and recurrent infection,and make your prostate irritated and swollen. These pathogens are hard to be detected by general test methods. As this occurs, inflammation,blockages,and enlarged irritate and oppress the surrounding tissue, lymphatic ducts, tiny blood vessels, glandular tubes, nerves,posterior urethra, vas deferens, and ejaculatory duct, causing many different symptoms. However, we cannot be sure what your pathogens are, blockages and enlarged,and degree of blockages and enlarged until you come to our 3D Prostatitis Treatment Clinics for a full set of laboratory tests and examination.

Because of the lack of blood flow to the prostate,the prostatic capsules can prevent most of the medications from going into the prostate,and blockages that form as a result of infection, oral and/or IV antibiotics and other medication cannot penetrate into your prostate in a high enough concentration to kill the pathogens and enlarged cells. This is why you are unable to get rid of your diseases.Taking repeated doses of oral and IV antibiotics will not cure you. However, taking prolonged and/or repeated courses of oral and IV antibiotics will cause harmful side effects.

*Our Treatment *

The 3D Treatment is very effective for prostatitis,enlarged prostate,and genitourinary infections. Many patients who have been successfully treated had similar conditions as yours. 3D Prostatitis Treatment kills pathogens and enlarged cells, clears blockages and calcification, and discharge of toxic residue,our treatment is a method that treat the root cause of the disease. Once you are cured, your disease will not relapse. Our treatment is very safe and has no side effects. Our cure rate is over 95%,we can cure a variety of prostatitis,enlarged prostate,and/or other genitourinary infection except the patient do not have enough the time and economy for treatment.

Our treatment consists of several steps. Firstly, we identify the causative pathogens by a full set of lab testing,and determine the infected, blocked,and enlarged areas in the prostate by Digital Rectal Examination (DRE) and Transrectal ultrasound (TRUS). And then we inject a set of treatment medicines (including medicines that kill the causative pathogens and enlarged cells, anti-infection medicines, and anti-hyperplasia medicines,etc) to the infected,blocked,and enlarged areas in the prostate in high concentration by using the 3D local injection technology,thus directly inhibiting and killing the causative pathogens and enlarged cells. At the same time, we inject unblocking medicines to clear blockages and calcification,discharge toxic substances,and making the prostate lesion tissue significantly reduce and completely disappear. In addition, we use some herbal medicines to improve and restore the prostate immunity and the blood circulation to prevent the recurrence of the prostate diseases.

You will need treatment every day, there are at least 10 different locations need be injected. 3D doctor will choose two different infected, blocked,and enlarged sites every day to perform the injections. Within 30-40 days’ treatment period, each injection point only get a few shots, normally severe lesion tissues sites will get more shots. The needle we are using is very small. Our local injection has no side effect, will not cause any damage, and will not cause significant pain.

*Our Recommendations*

1) We recommend that you make arrangements to come to our Clinics in China for a period of 30-40 days of treatment.If you have complex contions, such as the infection is longer, antibiotic resistance, multiple pathogens, multiple areas Infections,significant blockage and calcification,prostate significant enlargment,the volume of enlarged prostate is more than 50ml,the impairment of prostate immunity and microcirculation, poor overall condition, and prostatitis combined with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) and/or prostrate cancer, etc.you will need this full period of time. Otherwise, 30 days will normally suffice. If the patients do not have enough time to finish treatment at one time, the treatment period can be divided into several stages.


2) Do not take prolonged and repeated courses of oral antibiotics and genitourinary medications. They will not be effective. Overuse and misuse of antibiotics will make your condition worse. Stop taking all antibiotics for at least 15 days before your arrival at our clinics so that we can properly test you for pathogens . Antibiotics will produce false negative pathogen test results.


3) Food and Drink: Stop consuming alcohol, coffee, spicy food, and shellfish. It is important to keep your immune system strong. This will help you to recover, both during and after the our 3D treatment

*Our Prices*

Because of different disease condition, different treatment courses, and doctors’ different qualification, the medical cost will be different. We are currently offering two price options. It is important for you to confirm your appointment time and price option with us when you decide to come to our clinics for testing and treatment.



Option (1): Cost is not an issue. For those patients who choose Dr. Song to administer treatment, Dr. Song is a true expert, and the inventor of the 3D treatment. Dr. Song has 26 years of 3D Prostate Treatment clinical experience,and he has experience and ability to treat various of complex prostate disease and urogenital infection.If you have various complex prostatitis condition,such as the infection is longer,prostate significant enlargment,the volume of enlarged prostate is more than 50ml,the impairment of prostate immunity and microcirculation,poor overall condition,and prostatitis combined with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) and/or prostrate cancer, etc, you can only choose to be treated by Dr. Song.At
present, Dr. Song works in the Xiangtan Clinic.



1) The total cost of laboratory testing and examination at our clinic is US$600. This includes: a full testing, examination, and evaluation upon your arrival; testing and examination during treatment; and a full testing and examination at the end of your treatment. This fee does not include any testing and/or examinations outside our clinic.



2) The 3D local injection treatment cost is US$400 per day. This includes doctor’s consultation, examination; treatment medicines(including medicines that kill the causative pathogens and enlarged cells, anti-infection medicines, anti-hyperplasia medicines, and anti-cancer medicines, etc), unblocking medicines, and improving microcirculation and immunity medicines...
 
Last edited:
Messages
59
prices treatment continued...

2) The 3D local injection treatment cost is US$400 per day. This includes doctor’s consultation, examination; treatment medicines(including medicines that kill the causative pathogens and enlarged cells, anti-infection medicines, anti-hyperplasia medicines, and anti-cancer medicines, etc), unblocking medicines, and improving microcirculation and immunity medicines; two local injections at two different infected, blocked,and enlarged sites every day. If you only needs 30 days of treatment, the total medical cost is: US$600 + US$400 x 30 days = US$12600.




3) Other prices: the translation and service fee is US$25 per day (including medical treatment translation and daily assistance outside the 3D Clinic, etc). There are many hotels near the Xiangtan Clinic, the daily room rates range from US$25 to US$60 (5 star hotel).The daily food costs range from US$15 to US$20 per day.




Option(2): Cost is an issue. For those patients who choose Dr. Li to administer treatment, Dr. Li have acquired extensive training and experience in the 3D Prostatitis Treatment techniques. Dr. Li has 10 years of 3D Prostatitis Treatment clinical experience. This is recommended for the majority of prostatitis without benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH),prostate cancer,and the volume of enlarged prostate is less than 40ml.At present, Dr. Li works in the Changsha Clinic.




1) The total cost of laboratory testing and examination at our clinic is US$600. This includes:full testing,examination,and evaluation upon your arrival; testing and examination during treatment; and full testing and examination at the end of your treatment. This fee does not include any testing and/or examinations outside our clinic.




2) The 3D local injection treatment cost is US$250 per day. This includes doctor’s consultation, examination;killing pathogens antibiotics, and unblocking medicines;two local injections at two different infected, blocked, and calcification sites. If you only needs 30 days of treatment,the total medical cost is: US$600 + US$250 x 30 days = US$8100.




3) Other prices: The translation fee is US$25 per day,medical translation during clinical hours, telephone support from 8:00 AM to 9:00 PM for assistance in daily needs. After hours support 9:00 PM to 8:00 AMfor emergency only. There are many hotels near our clinic,the daily room rates range from US$25 to US$90 (4 star hotel).The daily food costs range from US$15 to US$20 per day.




Other Treatment




Some types of virus can cause prostatitis,genitourinary infection,and systemic infection, such as human papilloma virus (HPV),Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Coxsackie Virus ( CSV) and Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV),etc. In the past, we detected viral infection in 30% of prostatitis and genitourinary infection patients in the full set of lab testing before their treatment started.If a virus is detected in the full set of lab testing, we recommend the patient receive 15 days of antiviral treatment,and it’s US$150 per time/every day. The patient will get intravenous drip once a day, and it takes about two hours a day.The treatment can make the IgM of the virus turn to negative, and the virus will not cause infection again in the patient’s body. Our clinical cure rate in treating these virus is over 90%.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hey Mark, thanks for this information - it's very, very helpful. Thank you :)

Umm, the antibiotics never gave me full relief on their own. But it's hard for me to say that they didn't assist me in some way. The relief that came while taking fluconazole was following some significant antibiotic therapy, so I think as you say, it could be multiple pathogens at play - one of which is candida/fungus-related. More recently, about 8 months ago, I was given itraconazole (Sporanox) to see if that had any impact as it is stronger than fluconazole, but all that did was cause some mild non-lasting hepatic damage. I have to admit, my diet while on itraconazole was nothing to write home about - I literally ate whatever, whenever, I wanted, with the exception of alcohol. I didn't drink during this period. I read elsewhere that a man was cured of fungal prostatitis using a combination of oral terbinafine and itraconazole, however I was told by two docs that they are known to interact with one another and cause cardiac issues - so who knows who to trust on that one?

Part of what I miss and what my partner misses too are aspects of our old lifestyle. I don't miss hangovers, but I do miss not being able to eat/drink more freely/socially. That's harder than the symptoms or even managing them, I think. The whole dealing with everyone else who doesn't understand or has a limited capacity for empathy, but an infinite capacity for unsolicited medical knowledge. I don't know about you - but I've received some absolutely outlandish suggestions from some otherwise very well-educated people. All are well-intentioned in my case, which is a positive, but their intent doesn't make it any less frustrating.

I like your approach about the kefir injections, dietary modifications and trying to crowd out gut bad bags. Especially since the prostate is a well of simple sugars, then modifying diet will play some role on prostate function, whether it's confirmed in the literature or not. I'm also hesitant to throw serious antibiotics at an "undiagnosed" problem. I know I have one, but without clear diagnosis, or rather, without a clear pathogenic agent identified, I don't want to treat on assumptions or educated guesses. Not yet, anyway...

On this front, I've read about rifaximin and VSL 3 probiotic being used for treatment of chronic bacterial prostatitis. After 12-months follow-up, those who were treated with the antibiotic and probiotic combination, had better bowel and bladder function compared to control. This was only published in 2014, so by the time a urologist sees it, who knows when that will be.

The urologists I've seen are beyond hopeless. The first one conducted two cystoscopies, a urodynamic study, other tests, and all was "normal" but I was advised that my prostate was slightly enlarged on one or two separate examinations, suggesting something was abnormal. The first one eventually said that he couldn't help me anymore, was puzzled, and referred me to a physiotherapist to work on my pelvic floor muscles which he said had tightened. The physiotherapist told me, upon hearing my story, that it was no surprise things had tightened up because I'd been experiencing severe diarrhoea for months, and after working through things with me said it wasn't even nearly as tight as the urologist had claimed. All things considered, this first urologist did have a kind bedside manner and he wasn't rude.

The second urologist was an outright d--khead. I only saw him for two appointments. He was rough during his examinations, and he acted like he had no f--ks left to give when speaking to me. I spent all of 5 minutes during two consultations in his clinic, and was charged greater than $500 for both, and prescribed two different strong antibiotics each time. I didn't take either of them, as this was post-FMT and despite my poor FMT results (detailed below), I didn't want to mess things up further by blindly taking antibiotics. Even if they are the right ones, something about the way they were given to me - "Try these, they might help. I don't know. Could be bad for you, I don't know. Do what you think is best" - makes me think not taking them might be the better option at this stage.

Centre for Digestive Diseases (CDD, Sydney) were unsatisfactory for me. They do excellent work for those suffering Clostridium difficile infection and indeed this saves many lives, and they report excellent results treating a range of illnesses, including, but not limited to inflammatory and irritable bowel diseases and syndromes. However, when I first presented to them, they were not interested in either my comprehensive digestive stool analysis, or my BioScreen, which had 2-3 species of overgrown bacteria, presence of yeasts detected, and seemed to look at me and say, 'Yep, we can fix this/you'. They immediately prescribed vancomycin and rifaximin, and I took them. In many ways, the clinic's reputation precedes them and so I took them without hesitation. I didn't get better.

Within six months, I was having 10 FMTs there. I left thousands of dollars poorer and with a larger Strep spp. overgrowth, and more gut imbalances than I first presented with, and most of the same symptoms. Add to that the depression which accompanies a failed treatment protocol and I wasn't in particularly high spirits. I'm young (under 30), and after months of keeping this to one side, I've recently ramped up my efforts for either: A) diagnosis and treatment or B) conservative management (i.e. kefir enemas, not FMT; "natural" antibiotics, not ciprofloxacin, as an example), and C) sensible symptom management (low-dose sleeping pills, when necessary).

At the moment, the "doing nothing" approach is and has impacted on my quality of life, so I've taken matters into my own hands a bit. And, I have to say, both your and Elph68's information, along with a few others on this forum, has been invaluable and I'm indebted to the collective research of others.

Hey Chuck,

Just a couple of things ..... Bioscreen (Dr Henry Butt) and CDD (Dr Borody) do not get along at all ..... Neither of them agree on the others protocol, nor does the CDD agree strep is a problem .....

Streptococcus parasanguinis is a huge part of the problem. It hides in biofilms with similar species and therefore looks like normal flora. It damages DNA at the cellular level, it produces D lactic acid which causes inflammation, it produces hydrogen sulfide which causes inflammation and it produces an extracellular protease which causes inflammation and tricks the immune system into auto-immunity. It also has the ability to share these traits with other species. It is so close to streptococcus pyogenes in its biological makeup. It is recognised here in Australia as 'normal flora' and therefore even if it is isolated, it is not identified or reported as a cause.

Nowhere in Western medecine is viridans strep species considered a problem ..... Unless there is an overgrowth of 1 species that they can identify as being an infection ..... That is the current failure and the doctors that I have dealt with do not want to know ...... The thought of pathogenic normal flora is too horrible for them ......
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
@Elph68 @chuck

This site has been made by a cured prostatitis sufferer. He details the familiar tribulations many of us are suffering. He includes a pathogen library and importantly reviews clinics internationally.
His 8 minute video describing his situation/the failed western approach/reasons pathogens are unidentified was worth watching.

I've linked a review he's made of a Chinese clinic that has been favoured by other blogs. Man l wish there was something more reliable than distilling information from the kindness of strangers.

https://www.sexualhealthclinics.org...is-infertility-treatment-clinic-in-china.html

Elph l'm aware you're in contact with China/Georgia. How's it going? I may go with Georgia as the phage therapy is more suitable for treating my family. Isolating the pathogens is the difficulty here and the extraordinarily high cost means l get one shot, if at all. Im loathe to treat on speculation, it's way too costly.

Chuck, without kids involved, the Chinese option appears preferable as partners (even without obvious symptoms) can be treated, obviously preventing reinfection.

Hi Mark,

I am going phage therapy first .... the reason being that it gives the best chance to take out the problem systemically .... Don't get me wrong, the treatment I have had has brought me back and I am about 80% cured, even my prostate pain is considerably reduced but I have been on abx for nearly a year though ....

The particular issue I have with partners is that if the bad guys aren't taken out of the gut, they will get back into the vagina and your prostatitis/vaginitis will always come back .... we might need a new thread on this ........

The vagina pumps out sugar for about 10 days per month, and has a natural bacterial imbalance that occurs every month. That is why CFS/fibromyalgia is predominately a female condition .... And is why it should be recognized as an STD .....

And for those that argue against this, I will say this .... how many people who have chlamydia don't know they have it??

Research suggests that 50% of men and 70-80% of women don’t get symptoms at all with a chlamydia infection.
http://www.healthdirect.gov.au/chlamydia

I hear people on this forum say that 'everybody carries these bugs so why am i suffering and not them?' I ask the question, if 80% of women don't get symptoms for an STI, how can that be? Same question I reckon ....
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Something very strange has happened since I have started to kick this in the backside.

For over 25 years I have had a skin rash, really horrible. My dermatologist said it was most likely caused by a protein in my food, but nearly impossible to find what is causing it. Been on medication for all this time. It started around the same time that I had an infection .... I always thought that it was linked some how ..... An intense itch and burning, made me feel like i want to cut my skin out ....

Whenever I have forgotten to fill my prescription, the rash reminds me ..... And it reminds me really quickly ....

2 months ago my prescription run out ..... I still haven't filled it ..... Very strange .....
 
Messages
59
Hi Elph,

Happy to hear your health has improved up to this point. Lets see if we can't get cured okay!!

Kefir grain/tea injections have been by far my best addition, pain and inflammation vanishes for a period, but no cure yet. Just read about a child cured of tourettes via probiotic enemas. This is positive frontier medicine.

I'd been corresponding with a Chinese clinic who've been very responsive and informative. They claim to easily knock off strep parasanquinis, staph, candida, many viruses, even lyme...basically any nasty. Their small fail rate has been men who haven't completed the therapy (due to time/economic reasons) or the lab hasn't detected a causative pathogen.

They've supplied emails of cured Aus men to contact, but there's no Aus clinic/doc who can verify their claims. Doesn't really bother me as the medical industry in Aus has their heads in the sand on this whole issue anyway. Prostate cancer has bumped heart disease as the number one killer of men in this country and docs aren't at all equipped to deal with this.

http://www.ntshealth.com.au/wellness/blog/protecting-your-prostate.html

Relating these bugs to "known" or lets say "accepted" causative pathogens such as chlamydia is spot on. Not everybody feels symptoms/noticeably becomes ill with chlamydia and can therefore unknowingly pass it on. Similar stories on the web of new partners suffering herpes where their partner was asymptomatic/unaware. There's quite a lot of threads re strep throat turning to prostatitis/vaginosis - this is very real, just not everybody succumbs or has symptoms.

Dr David Perlmultter has written that some researchers think some peoples immune system can't deal with strep and that our antibodies possibly do more than attack strep, attacking the brain, as they're unable to distinguish b/w proteins found in strep cell wall and those found in the brain responsible for movement and behavior. I have Myoclonus and my body twitches and tingles.

Elph, can you please let me know the Georgian clinic (s?) you're communicating with? It's my preference, as it's hopefully a more systemic treatment and can cover my son so it never reappears, but l have a few queries l'd like to resolve first.

I'm not sure of the etiquette here, so happy to start new thread or pm each other.

Thanks,
Mark
 
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Hi Mark,

I pushed so hard I have been in a legal battle with several medical people including the local pathology lab that have accused me with defamation .... As well as being forced into 'counselling' for being obsessive ....

Not sure if this suits you but I believe phage therapy offers the best chance of beating this .... AND it can be used on children. The cost is about $6k US for the preperation of the treatment, about $4k per person for treatment, plus airfares and accommodation for 2 to 4 weeks in Georgia (Europe) depending on how we use it.

It takes 2 weeks to develop the specific phages and we can then either stay for another 2 weeks to have it administered, or send the solution back to Aus to be administered here. I have checked with customs and phage solution is ok to be imported to AUS as long as it is for the person using it, and there is less than 3 months supply.

In order for this therapy to work we need to know exactly what bacteria to go after, the only way we can do that here in Australia, is with a stool test from Bioscreen and then it is a bit of an educated guess as to what is in the prostate.

Phage therapy has been used successfully to cure chronic enterococcus faecalis prostatitis, which is like viridans strep prostatitis .... almost impossible to cure as they act in the same way .... biofilms, calcification, organic acids, hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide etc.Enterococcus prostatitis is detectable, mixed viridans strep prostatitis is not ...

The phage people don't know enough about this, but have listened to my theories and believe they can come up with a solution that will work ..... They just need to know exactly what bacteria we want them to go after, so they can isolate the strains and match phages to kill them. If we could find a lab that would isolate the bacteria for us here in Australia, we could send them the live bacteria and they could develop the solution without us travelling there.

We still need to replace the bad bugs we take out with good live bacteria.

I would be very surprised Mark if Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis isn't involved.

I am happy for you to call me if you wish to discuss: 0419 140 088

Cheers.


Do they look at dissolving calcifications that may harbor bastardos? This is a major feature of Chinese direct injection therapy.

Can these phages penetrate biofilm? What's the possibility of a couple of survivors returning in numbers...

The Chinese seem very thorough with their lab work, also monitoring pathogen status throughout treatment, even altering abx if pathogen changes form to resist treatment. What is the Georgian process?

Are we going to only rely on bioscreen for detection? My concern, is the prostrate/genito urinary may be concealing something bioscreen/gut lab might not identify. Sounds crazy but maybe just getting the lab work in China first to then use phage. I think that'd cost $1000.

Are their docs/cured patients we can verify success?
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Do they look at dissolving calcifications that may harbor bastardos? This is a major feature of Chinese direct injection therapy.

Can these phages penetrate biofilm? What's the possibility of a couple of survivors returning in numbers...

The Chinese seem very thorough with their lab work, also monitoring pathogen status throughout treatment, even altering abx if pathogen changes form to resist treatment. What is the Georgian process?

Are we going to only rely on bioscreen for detection? My concern, is the prostrate/genito urinary may be concealing something bioscreen/gut lab might not identify. Sounds crazy but maybe just getting the lab work in China first to then use phage. I think that'd cost $1000.

Are their docs/cured patients we can verify success?

Hi Mark,

Sorry for the delay, I have had some personla/legal issues that needed my full attention ....

I am not sure about calcification removal .... my guess is that once the bugs that build cause the calcification are gone, then the calcification will eventually break down via ejaculation etc.

Phages are very good at busting into biofilms. Once the phages required have been identified, they do monitor the progress and can adjust accordingly ..... but this depends on how long you stay in Georgia .... typically 2 weeks is long enough .... BUT there is always an exception.

I have been struggling with the same question with regards to lab work .... the problem is biofilms forming in a sugar environment ..... taking out those species should cause the other species caught up in the biofilm to act normally (outside of the biofilm).

Phage therapy is not a panacea ...... There may have to be ongoing treatment in order to fully resolve the issues ...... This is all new ground to the Phage people, but they are willing to listen to our theories and provide appropriate treatment solutions. They tell me that their lab does not look for infections like western labs do ..... So if we can tell them what we want them to look for .... we are in with a shot. That is why I have all my family bioscreen tested and I have looked at each strain to see if it fits into what I believe are the traits causing our problem. The phage people may also prescribe a short course of abx to assist the phages ..... a couple of weeks of abx. in conjunction with phage therapy I believe is better than 3, 6 or more months of abx. on its own ....

Will send you through Naomi's details.

Cheers.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
Hi elph.
yes will try and source a breve only probio.
certainly continous high dlactate could not.do anyone any good.
i mean very high levels can be medical emergency....its taken very seriously.
i think it plays havoc.with our blood.and.cardio system.
i took an awful dip on vsl3 last week.
hence not all probios are.created equal. Targeted probio is necessary.
bicarb.soda and strong lemon water should help alleviate the acid by alkalising....then carb restriction.
closing in on this b***ard.
good stuff elph:)

@gregh286 What exactly is the bicarb mix?

If someone took this and felt better would that be a fair indication that lactate levels are causing problems?

Or could you have the high lactate and it not be helped by the bicarb?

Or alternatively could the bicarb help for another reason? Thanks for your help
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
975
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
@gregh286 What exactly is the bicarb mix?

If someone took this and felt better would that be a fair indication that lactate levels are causing problems?

Or could you have the high lactate and it not be helped by the bicarb?

Or alternatively could the bicarb help for another reason? Thanks for your help

Hi
Personally i think the bicarb is affecting bacterial infections....drinking 5ml bicarb.unlikely to have a huge neutralising effect on blood lactate by time it passes gut wall etc.
Possibly a bacterial suppressant due to high alkaline. I get same effect.from highly concentrated lemon water....again very alkalising.
Both shed my tongue from geographic to normal state.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
@gregh286 What exactly is the bicarb mix?

If someone took this and felt better would that be a fair indication that lactate levels are causing problems?

Or could you have the high lactate and it not be helped by the bicarb?

Or alternatively could the bicarb help for another reason? Thanks for your help
Hi Knackers,

The real problem with lactate is that the medical profession does not know where the baseline is for 'normal' levels of d-lactate. Even though our body keeps the total ph levels 'normal' it is the ratio between d-lactate and l-lactate In the system where the problems arise.

The reason for taking bicarbonate is to alkalise the small intestine so lactic acid is not absorbed in this area. Too much bicarbonate has a similar effect as too much acid .... Makes you sick.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
@Mark37 I find it interesting that you use gse. Why do you use that as an antibacterial exactly?

I had some success with big doses of pycnogenol. I now wonder if this is why.

I have heard people feel better after taking bicarb before. How far away from food should it be taken, or does it not effect the acid in the gut used to break down food?

Also I've heard that using too much decreases the acid that keeps candida in check. ?