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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Just as a side note, I have a feeling that breast milk is a better option than FMT ....

    Research also says that fucose supplements promote the growth of e-coli and prevents the adhesion of pathogens such as enterococcus to epithelial cells ....

    Eat some seaweed or shiitake mushrooms ....
     
    Izola likes this.
  2. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi @Elph68,

    Just a quick mention: I've dealt with a lot of gut issues for many years. Because of chronic residual pain in my gut, I've always assumed part of the reason for this pain was because of some kind of infection going on.

    I started taking Liposomal Vitamin C (homemade) a few months ago (primarily to address Lyme infection), gradually increasing my dosage to a current 15g/day. During this time, the pain in my GI tract has mostly cleared up. I've assumed the anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal properties of Vit. C is responsible for my improvements.
     
  3. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Wayne,

    That fits in with what I am proposing .... Vit C is a bacteria killer .....

    Cheers.
     
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    After a month of xylitol and a little oregano oil up my nose, this horrendous and debilitating muscle pain (Cramps) in my right arm, chest and shoulder has almost completely gone. The physio is amazed. He said he has never seen anybody go from severe cramping and muscles that were as hard as a rock, to almost normal in the space of a week.

    I suspect that the pain location may have a little to do with the bacterial location as this is the point where the bacterial toxins enter the body.

    Just further evidence for the bacterial argument.

    Cheers.
     
  5. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I haven't been asleep, but sometimes I wish I could. I thought I had better stir things up again ..... I have attached 3 pictures which specifically relate to how these bacteria are acting in our bodies to cause disease. With particular emphasis on viridans streptococcus. I believe that because I got onto it early enough, I am holding it at bay .... for the time being. Like many of you I have burning mouth and tongue and I have this 'diagnosis' of geographic tongue, so I was told to stop eating tomatoes and stop drinking tea as siciliates is the cause of this .... apparently.

    I have mentioned this before, and I have a video of the whole process if anybody is interested, but what I have done is applied 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide to my tongue. All around the red patch it burns, and has gone white and frothy .... That is what it is supposed to do because that is catalase activity, the hydrogen peroxide being broken up into oxygen and water. The red patch did not change, it was already burning, but the hydrogen peroxide had no effect on that red patch. This means that the most likely cause of this is the red patch is inhabited by bacteria that produce hydrogen peroxide. Species such as streptococcus/enterococcus, lactobacillus, lactococcus etc. Most likely however it is viridans streptococcus/enterococcus species. These species produce hydrogen sulfide and lactic acid in the presence of glucose (and other simple sugars). Both these chemicals kill the immune system (macrophages and leukocytes) and cause widespread systemic damage, damage to internal organs particularly the liver and kidneys and the CNS and blocks the body's ability to convert fuel to energy.

    There are 4 risk factors I have been able to put my finger on .... 1. female (vagina), 2. abx usage, 3. type 2 diabetes or pre diabetic, 4. High sugar intake (eg. sports drinks, pasta etc.).

    I have found something very interesting about the female cycle in particularly sugar levels in the vagina. I know there are some ladies that have suffered from vaginitis for some time (including my wife). I shall now explain what I believe is why.

    During the menstrual cycle the vagina excretes mucus which changes in consistency depending on what hormonal changes are taking place. The mucus sugar levels change from minimal preovulatory, to significant at premenstrual. So if a vagina is inhabited with hydrogen sulfide strains of bacteria, during these high sugar times they are going to poison the vagina with these toxins, and also produce biofilms which makes them highly contagious and therefore transferable to other parts of the body, especially the gut ..... In this form (hyped up on sugar), it seems they are unstoppable .... When they are transferred out of the vagina and back into the mouth in this form .... they take over the mouth. They become a superbug (mixed species) and the amount of hydrogen peroxide they produce overpowers everything in their path, thus causing these red burning patches you can see on my tongue. The same process happens when we take abx, as these strains are already resistant to all the common oral ones the doc will prescribe and are able to take over when other species are killed off.

    If these species have taken over completely, then that is a real big problem ..... I am not going to post what I have found, inbox me if you are really curious.

    Some people are de-sensitized to the effects of hydrogen sulfide so they don't have any pain, or they have a higher pain threshold. For me, every single part of my body's mucus membranes burn. Eyes, nose, mouth, throat, genitals, prostate but since oral vancomycin, my gut is pretty good as long as I keep my diet sugar free. If you are one of the unlucky ones that is de-sensitized to the pain effects of the bacteria toxins, everything is pretty much internal so it is harder to pinpoint and doctors make mis-diagnosis.

    Once the immune system is under stress from this condition, other viruses etc. are able to take hold and make our lives really nasty. Hydrogen peroxide kills macrophages and damages cellular DNA, hydrogen sulfide kills leukocytes, damages the liver, kidneys, CNS and effects the brain .... and both these chemicals/enzymes cause multi system dysfunction when in over supply and prevent the body from converting food to fuel. Then there is also the problems associated with lactic acid, particularly D-lactic acid.

    This is a broad overview of the undetectable infection ....
     

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  6. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    Study about the relationship of streptococcus and candida:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24566629

    To treat streptococcus, one should ex equo treat candida, as they live together in relationship, promoting each other.
     
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  7. PNR2008

    PNR2008 Senior Member

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    I've had walking pneumonia or atypical pneumonia for almost 2 months. I have barely left the house except to go to drs. offices and ER's. Twice on IV antibiotics and now the second round of antibiotics by mouth, last night showed the spot was still there though much improved.

    I've had the dramatic pneumonia and that forced one to act but this is like slowly circling the drain and feeling weaker everyday until I even started questioning myself. I guess with low NK cells, what do I expect yet every sickness seems to weaken me and the will to carry on but I will. I will.
     
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  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Did you end up doing this @globalpilot
     
  9. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I've been following this thread which is interesting, and things keep clicking with me.

    The only thing I tested positive for so far was candida, which I know doesn't mean much, but I also have a naval infection which I'm treating with ABX.

    In any case, I'm taking difflucan and Keflex at the same time. So one would think this would clear up any strep or candida (hypothetically).
     
  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    So, now I feel I really outa put it out there, I have come up with what I would call a definition of the undetectable infection, and thus CFS .....

    This is all my own words by the way, I have all the research to back this up and you are welcome to copy it as long as my name and phone number stays with it. The reason for this is I want a researcher to contact me so I can prove it in a lab ....

    ' ...... CFS is an imbalance in the body's systems signalling chemicals hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide which results in lactic acidosis, organ failure, inflammation and multi system dysfunction. This imbalance is caused by opportunistic (biofilm forming) bacterial pathogens in the hosts micro flora.

    Opportunistic pathogens use a process known as lymphatic translocation to take up residence in the lymphatic system and use the body's fuel source glucose, which results in a chemical imbalance which kills the immune system at the source of their production leaving the body literally defenceless to further bacterial and viral attack. The host is likely to have a genetic catalase deficiency at the cellular level or at the very least a lack of catalase producing bacteria in the micro flora which results in systemic hydrogen peroxide damage and inflammation. Hydrogen sulphide production also causes inflammation, overstimulates the CNS and its peripheries and damages the mitochondria. ...... Darren Elphinstone +61 419 140 088 ....... '

    ..... so Heapsreal, the right answer to your earlier question about low NK Killer cells is .... Opportunistic bacteria take up residence in the lymphatic system and use the body's glucose as a fuel source to produce hydrogen sulfide which is highly toxic to leukocytes and NK killer cells, as well as other components of the immune system. ....... Therefore they are killed off in the nest so to speak ....

    This is a chemical imbalance and therefore there are no antibodies produced only cytokines. This explains the lack of antibodies in CFS sufferers.

    As a result of this condition viruses, and retro viruses are able to flourish as there is little to no resistance from the immune system as it is NK killer cells that keep these under control. I therefore believe that viruses/retro viruses and the like are a complication of this condition. I believe that research will show that this complication results in fibromyalgia. Studies show that low NK killer cells lead to very bad initial herpes attacks .....

    For those of you that believe environmental toxins are the root cause, I will also say that environmental toxins probably just further complicate this condition as the body is already overloaded with bacterial toxins and therefore is unable to handle any more. Toxin reduction probably helps some people.

    For those that have iron problems, your likely cause is haemolytic bacteria, streptococcus mainly.

    I see comments about early ageing.... Catalase deficiency allows hydrogen peroxide to accelerate the ageing process.

    Catalase deficiency allows hydrogen peroxide to damage the cellular bonds in the gut .... Resulting in leaky gut.

    Sensitivity to light and smells .... An overstimulation of the optical and olfactory nerve from the chemical imbalance .... This is not a gut issue, the bacteria are on the eyes and up the nose directly attacking the nerves.

    Muscle cramps/pain .... Hydrogen sulfide is a known cause of this .... Lactic acid if the muscles are sore but not cramped .....

    Brain fog ..... Lactic acid and hydrogen sulfide cause this

    Memory and cognitive problems, hydrogen sulfide and/or lactic acid.

    Mucosal inflammation and irritation ..... Hydrogen sulfide and hydrogen peroxide if catalase deficient

    Lethargy ..... Lactic acid and/or hydrogen sulfide

    This is the undetectable infection .... And it is highly contagious when these bugs are pumped up on sugar and have formed biofilms .......

    Now I need a list of doctors/researchers that I can push this out to ..... Anybody able to supply me with details of anyone please?

    Thanks for reading .....
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
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  11. gregh286

    gregh286

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    hi elp,
    I am totally with you on this one.
    I didnt read all this forum but you most likely have read KDM presentation where they already proved high step and others in ME patients, its very interesting: http://www.slideshare.net/guest4781...s-hydrogen-sulfide-and-aberrant-prion-disease

    I also have geographic tongue, its been present since illness onset. Helped by mastic gum, prehaps surpressing the strep.
    Dont care what any doc says, geographic tongue is not normal.
    I have +4 and +5 on 3 strep bacteria counts, so i most certainly in this high strep club.
    My CFS was acquired over a period of years, this is also why i am on this theory, a perpetual strep growth that eventually broke the camels' back.
    Pretty sure, this is why we have lactic legs in the morning, d-lactase builds overnight with our circadian rhythm.
    Treatment is tricky, currently I am on ciprofloxacin, baking soda/water, ozone therapy.
    High dose Vit C is a good one for it, most definetly.
    This is a classy page regarding this issue from myhill: http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

    I have order ascorbic and mag. ascorbate per her recommendation.
    As you say metals just add fuel, not the real perpetrator.
    Avoiding sugar is a must.

    I'lll keep you posted on progress. In start of Jan I will do another comprehensive stool analysis to compare the original.
     
  12. gregh286

    gregh286

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    @Elph68

    tongue attache.
    although it looks thrushy,. its not candida.
     

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  13. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Greg,

    I have extensively read KDM and Dr Myhill and they are the closest I have seen yet, although I believe they don't have the full story. And particularly with KDM, I have some issues with integrity, but hopefully he has learned from his mistakes.

    I have had the strep removed from my bowel with vancomycin and augmenting forte, I am waiting to have my FMT program finished. They tried Cipro for my systemic strep, BUT, strep can build resistance to fluroquinolines while it is being used ... If I was you, I would ask my doc for a second type of abx to go with it, probably erythromycin.

    To prove to your doc geo tongue is a strep problem, get some 35% hydrogen peroxide and drip it over your tongue, it will froth around the tongue, but not on the red patches. The red patches are hydrogen peroxide producing catalase negative bacteria ..... Supposedly the good guys ..... I wouldn't mind betting it is streptococcus parasanguinis that is causing the strep to stick together and do that to your tongue. Strep normally mingles amongst the rest of the flora until it is drawn together by a biofilm forming strain in the presence of glucose, particularly strep parasanguinis/sanguinis, and some from the strep mitis group and enterococcus faecalis.

    Your tongue is like mine ..... Xylitol gum helps, ginger and garlic gargling helps, oregano oil also helps.

    Then there is your partner, as soon as you have treated this, your partner, if you have one, will pass it straight back to you ..... I have been having a lot of that :(

    Best of luck, let me know how you go.

    Cheers,

    Darren.
     
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  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Just to clarify a point you made, low nk cells arent the common finding in cfs/me but low nk function, generally the numbers are fine, so nk cells arent being killed off as such. Lymphocyte numbers are generally high although it can be low in some. Lymphocyte numbers dont seem to be a standard thing in cfs/me which is why many gurus say t cell numbers are dysfunctional, covers all bases?
     
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  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Heapsreal .... Thanks for that .... I have so much data here ..... Then I put forward in this scenario it is hydrogen peroxide causing the problem. Macrophages are what control the activation of the T cells ..... A hydrogen peroxide imbalance destroys macrophages. Without macrophages there are no antibodies produced, no immune system activation ....

    Do you have any data on macrophages from the guru's??

    Cheers.
     
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  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Not so much on macrophages but interferons which increase nk function and herpes viruses have a way of avoiding the immune system by somehow turning down interferon production which effects nk function. Interferons can increase macrophagers.

    You probably already aware that KDM uses gcmaf which increases macrophage production.

    Dr Chia has used interferons and interferon inducers to treat enteroviral infections and is also found of rifampin which he uses for bacterial infections commonly found in gut biopsies? He seems quite interested in the th1/th2 balance to treat EV etc
     
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  17. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Do you have any data on macrophages from the guru's??

    Cheers.[/QUOTE]

    Somewhere through this thread I also talked about protease expression. A lot of antiviral medication are protease inhibitors. Protease is what viruses use to turn down interferon production as you have mentioned. Streptococcus parasanguinis is one bacteria that produces a protease that can do exactly that. Thanks for reminding me of that, better include that in my working definition somehow ....

    So if one type of bacteria has that ability, then there has to be more .....

    Cheers.
     
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    not off the top of my head, i would have to search more into it but it seems researchers like Klimas and grifith university would be the people looking into things like this?

    Diagnosing the actual infection thats causing the immune dysfunction is the hard part and maybe very individual and or is it several infections??

    Recent research in australia has shown lyme is present here.

    I guess its a treat and see to know if a certain infection is an issue?
     
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  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Heapsreal,

    I agree that there are multiple infection combinations that could result in CFS. lactobacillus can theoretically be a problem if it forms a biofilm with citrobacter or kleibsella species for example .......

    I believe that acceptance of a subgroup, that being viridans strep as the cause, will then unlock the door for the rest.

    The medical profession says viridans strep species are basically harmless in the micro flora, but if 3 or more species come together in a biofilm, then that is an infection so to speak ......

    Thanks for the extra input ....

    Cheers.
     
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  20. gregh286

    gregh286

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    @Elph68
    hi elp,
    a week on and you can see tongue is clear.
    this is a treatment protocol of:
    Threelac probiotic (high in ascorbic acid)
    Vit C
    mastic gum
    ozone treatment
    ciprofloxacin
    sugar avoidance
    baking soda/water mix

    energy levels increasing daily.
    whether its sustainable we will see.
    my energy levels correlate directly with tongue state and level of thirst.
    As you probably know, TCM base treatment on tongue condition.
    Multivitamins not help much, I guess the pathogens are devouring them.
    Will keep you posted :):)
     

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