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The Fable known as The PACE Trial
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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The infections are mucosal, eyes, nose, throat & mouth, vagina, penis, prostate and gut.

    Nope .... those antibiotics are for gram negative bugs, specifically e-coli.

    Vancomycin, and any cell wall inhibitor antibiotic may not work on enterococcus/streptococcus when used on their own, they are also resistant to macrolides ..... That is why I have triple+ therapy which attacks these bugs at cell wall, dna and protein synthesis ... a lethal cocktail we hope ...
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  2. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    hi @Elph68,
    so im thinking if your correct and this is the case invest in ME might be able to find this with their gut research that they have started.
    Im wondering who else is doing upcoming or current comprehensive gut studies? im struggling to think.
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Lipkin is trying to get funding to do this last I read.
    aimossy likes this.
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Aimossy,

    right now, I have enough papers and all the research has been done to prove CFS/Fibromyalgia, Hypo thyroidism, pancreatitis, rheumatoid arthritis, prostatitis, vaginitis, IBS/IBD, are caused by pathogenic normal flora viridans streptococcus/enterococcus ...... But the idea of that .... the consequences of it ..... are too horrendous for the medical profession to contemplate ..... I even have research here that shows streptococcus skins (endotoxin) uses the same pathogenic pathways as LPS .... so the body treats viridans strep toxins as an LPS ..... How is that for a curve ball??? It may bugger up some of the LPS theory ....
  5. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Who is Lipkin??
  6. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    @alex3619 thanks for memory prompt! ME moment.
    @Elph68 scour the articles on PR home page there is an article on what this man is up to.
    It was really helpful reading lots of PR articles for me in my learning about ME and what is happening.
    It was also really helpful going through the symptom threads and reading the Canadian consensus criteria and the International consensus criteria.
    well it was for me anyway you may have already:)
    rosie26 and MeSci like this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Lipkin is probably the worlds #1 virus hunter, he has discovered over 500 and is organizing the biggest study into ME ever. So far only the first stage is done and not yet published, but he found no active viruses of concern (this does not count noncytolytic viruses which this stage of the study cannot detect) and elevated leptin. He also found that while our serum cytokines have no stable signature, our spinal fluid cytokines do. In addition there is a shift in the cytokine pattern at about three years, possibly indicating early ME changes somehow into a later form.

    Most bacteria, fungi, etc he has yet to look at. He also thinks a full gut microbiome study is needed, and is struggling to get funding for it.

    Lipkin is probably the highest profile researcher ever to do research into ME. He was convinced in about 1998 that ME is real as he was looking at Borna virus in us. He didn't find it, but he kept seeing immune issues.
    leela, rosie26, aimossy and 1 other person like this.
  8. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Cool..... I just e-mailed him and suggested he look at pathogenic normal flora (streptococcus/enterococcus)... and I have data he may be interested in ....

    All as I know is I have all these symptoms, I have a lot of stuff I have figured out with this that I can't say in public, I know it is bacterial, I know it is normal flora, I know it is contagious .....

    Can't figure out what all the drama is about, pretty straight forward to me .... But it seems we may be our own worst enemy .....
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    So what are the 3 abx u think will be effective at treating this infection and for how long will this treatment need to be?

    Please dont think I/we are anti this theory, we are interested but cautious as there as been alot of theories that havent panned out, many past theories are still somewhat valid for some and is the reason why putting people into sub groups is mentioned alot in cfs/me. Triple combination abx treatment isnt new in cfs/me as its been used for other bacterial infection theories which have worked for some and not for others. Pinning down a cause of cfs/me really comes down to accurate testing, after more than a decade with cfs/me, testing for most infections especially active infections is an educated guess at best from where i look. Its also a horse or the cart thing too, is it an infection causing immune dysfunction or the immune dysfunction allowing the infections to run wild.

    Interested to hear more of your research,
    cheers!!!
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Why not?
  11. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Hi Elph68,

    I do have a lot of pressure from the gas, especially in the upper gut area.

    I do not however, have reflux. That is something I find odd because I do produce very acidic stomach acid - .4 or .5 where the normal is around 1.5 or so. Do you have any information on why this would be so ?

    I have all those symptoms you mentioned except photophobia.

    I also had my H2S measured using Kenny DeM’s kit and it was normal which is odd.

    I also agree the bacteria cause the leaky gut – I believe that is well known that an overgrowth does that.

    I don’t agree with you about the viruses however. I’ve only just started to look into viruses but have learned they facilitate colonization of bacteria.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7305570 - an example

    I find that drinking kefir increased my symptoms tremendously. They should wash away from your gut and not hang around but I believe they were colonizing in me and the enterovirus may be why.

    GP
    aimossy likes this.
  12. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hmmnnn .... I am going to do something a little different, I will go through and break down every stage of why this is a bacterial infection from normal flora rather than trying to write a darn mini thesis and confusing the hell out of us all .... Those that think this is an immune problem, or a virus ..... Well I can show you otherwise .....

    CFS ..... The Undetectable Bacterial Infection 101 ....
  13. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Can you tell us why not Elph?
  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Yours might be bacterial but you can not prove mine is caused by bacteria.
  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Lansbergen,

    If you have access to the right lab .... I definitely can ....
  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I reckon there are under 18's here .... I am not going to put up some of the tests I have done in an open forum.

    But this should be classed as an STI ....
    aimossy likes this.
  17. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Why do I have to have access to labs while you want to prove something?
    heapsreal likes this.
  18. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Sexual transmitted infection?? Now you are accusing my husband to have pissed outside the pot. Or do you mean I did? Or do you mean my mother gave it to me in the womb, during birth or breast feeding?

    Please expain why I have improved very much without taking any antibiotics.
    SOC likes this.
  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    CFS The undetectable infection: The symbiotic relationship.

    I may as well get laughed off this forum, as every doctor I have spoken to has thrown me out of my office when I present them with the argument of pathogenic normal flora!

    Normally we are colonized with numerous bacteria and viruses which are both good and bad. These live in a slurry on the surface of our mucous membranes, mouth nose, throat, vagina, urinary tract, colon etc. A symbiotic relationship develops and many of these organisms are able to attach onto cell receptors so they can permanently inhabit the mucous membranes. When they live on the mucous membranes in this manner the body is protected from any virulence traits of the organism, and the organism is protected from being attacked by the bodies immune system. And in this manner, the body and organism get something from this relationship.

    When an organism is pathogenic it has acquired the ability to breech the epithelial layer of the mucous membrane and then has access to the underlying cells and blood stream. This is the point where the body's immune system comes into play and it launches an attack against the invaders. All of you who have been studying the immune system can tell me more about the chemistry of the immune system but basically there are pro inflammatory enzymes (cytokines) released (this is why there is inflammation) the bodies attacking force arrives at the site of inflammation and starts fighting the invaders, and then there is an anti-inflammatory enzyme released which then turns off the inflammation. Until the invaders are destroyed, this is a continuous process. So if you are one of the 25% of people that have an interleukin 10 deficiency, you would have continuous visible inflammation. Most people who have normal interleukin 10 have inflammation initially, and then it goes away but the battle still goes on. As a result of the battle you have this cocktail of inflammatory and anti inflammatory enzymes (cytokines), dead invaders, antibodies and expressed proteins and enzymes from the invaders circulating through your blood stream. Basically we are being continuously poisoned from the battle. I reckon this alone makes us really sick ...

    A bacterial pathogen has one purpose, attack at the cellular level, create pus and thus create an environment that is good for them. Viridans streptococcus however works more like guerrilla warfare. It is happy with its symbiotic relationship but also likes to launch invasive attacks, and as they are non pyogenic (don't form pus) all as you have is an inflammation. Scientists know that viridans strep species can cause infection if it is allowed to enter the bloodstream (bacteremia) scientists haven't caught on yet that some strains of viridans streptococcus and enterococcus have found the ability to breach the epithelial layer and live at the cellular level.

    (I believe this is why so much time has been spent looking for viruses because there is no pus, just inflammation!!)

    If I was a researcher and wanted to look at any one bug, I would start with streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis and I will explain why next ......
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi lansbergen,

    this is exactly why I didn't want to open that can ..... any one of what you quote is likely and possible but I will also add, kissing, antibiotic use, sharing food and drinks, visiting the dentist .....

    If you can lower the amount of pathogenic bacteria in your system, you will reduce symptoms severity .... But you can never eradicate the normal flora totally ....

    What is worse, an infected finger ..... or a huge infected gash in your leg?? It is about the size of the infection...

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