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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Interesting but I thought catalase was dependent on copper and on bacteria, hence the catalase test, which is used to separate bacteria in catalase-positive and catalase-negative respectively.
    I wonder if adding catalase would not encourage these catalase-positive bacteria (which include some real nasties like :Staph (all)
    Pseudomonas
    Aspergillus
    Candida
    Enterobacteriaceae
    -Citrobacter, enterobacter, E.coli, Klebsiella
    -Shigella, Yersinia, Proteus and Salmonella
    -Serratia

    Maybe it would be better to supplement with copper or "good" catalase-positive bacteria like
    Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus mesentericus and I suppose others.
  2. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Marco,

    I am putting my money where my mouth is and I am about to to start an honours in microbiology, I am working with the university here to come up with a project that proves my theory on a small scale.

    I also believe that phage therapy is a worthwhile treatment option to investigate .... But that would shaft the drug companies as phases are naturally occurring.

    I have also spoken to the commercial pathology, and I have a letter from their lawyer threatening me to cease my campaign against their inadequacies in testing or face their wrath. They know that I am right, so now they are running scared and using bully tactics to force me to shut up.

    The thing is, if we concentrate on a subset of the disease and prove that colonisation of streptococcus viridans is one of the causes of CFS in catalase deficient patients .... Then that blows the psychobabble theory out the window ... And some people can be cured.

    Lactic acid, hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulfide poisoning pretty much covers most of the symptoms I have seen here .... And if the bacteria that produce these get in the lymphatic system .... Game over .... They get into the lymphatic system by breaking through the epithelial layer .... Particularly the gut, but any mucous membrane .....

    And these are all signallers used by the body's systems .... So apart from their known poisonous effects, it is not hard to deduce an oversupply of these produced by an external source, such as bacteria, will send the systems they normally control, into meltdown ....
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
    globalpilot and mellster like this.
  3. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    In theory it is a good idea, but the reality is they can"t break into the biofilms formed by the h2o2 bacteria ...

    That is why geographic tongue forms ....
  4. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I really hope you succeed, and I also think phage therapy could be useful, but I expect heavy resistance for the reasons you mentioned. I also forgot about intravenous ABx, but that its a brutal treatment. Even with phage therapy one needs to be careful, AFAIK they test the phages effectiveness against the identified bacteria in a dish first, but how do they know it doesn't also affect other "good" bacteria (they can't possibly test against all)? That's why I think there should eventually be a fine needle delivery system that can do more than just go subcutaneous to eradicate wrinkles ;)
  5. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Yeah,

    The phage therapy is the last resort for me .... I am trying to get ramiplanin, daptamycin and gentamicin to resolve my issues .... But the reception hasn't been welcoming :(

    The beauty with phage is u don't need a script .....

    Have a good day
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    My understanding is that phages are very specific to particular organisms. My knowledge may be out of date as it is many years (pre-internet, perhaps!) since I looked at the issue in detail.
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I think that it may be difficult to persuade many patients - and regulatory bodies - to allow gut biopsies as part of research. I think that it is sometimes done on a small scale, and it is of course done for diagnostic purposes, but it's not something that is easy to justify for testing a theory. That's not to say that it is never done, of course.

    Although it is often hard or impossible to find offending organisms (and e.g. internal cancers) in serum or even red blood cells, sometimes the pathogenic evidence can be found in another form, such as downstream effects, e.g. metabolites. Such tests are (being) developed for bowel and cervical cancer, I believe, thus avoiding the problem of people refusing more invasive tests.

    So maybe a small study could identify such downstream traces in serum or red blood cells/whole blood, or maybe lymph, or faeces or urine, and these could be used in larger-scale studies.
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
    mellster likes this.
  8. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci, you are correct, phases are not just species, but they are strain specific ... They have to be perfectly matched or they won't be effective ...
  9. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Coming from an industrial background i thought I would see what information is available on hydrogen sulfide poisoning. To my surprise there has been extensive studies on this and they have even placed volunteers in a room and gassed them with hydrogen sulfide ... these are the symptoms at various levels.

    https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/chemicals/hydrogen_sulfide/docs/sulfide.pdf

    http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MMG/MMG.asp?id=385&tid=67

    Viridans streptococcus such as streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis are hydrogen sulfide producers.

    I have a suspicion that POTS may be a direct result of this .... somebody may be able to tell me otherwise ...

    Cheers.

    Attached Files:

  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    The simple answer is that it is the lack of catalase at the cellular level where the damage is done ... Catalase is bacterial and cellular protection against ROS, particularly H2O2 ... It seems horseradish peroxidase is a good alternative if you are looking for supplements.

    Many of those bacteria you mention have good strains which are highly beneficial ... The bacterial strains may be an important factor for this condition .....
  11. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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  12. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    doesn't xifaxan treat SIBO? it only causes temporary relief in CFS. it is not the cause
  13. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Daffodil ... The patent actually says that abx. Treatment is temporary and SIBO will return within 2 months of any treatment and that the bacteria causing SIBO remain in the large colon resulting in H2S escaping into the small intestine causing 'reduced but ongoing symptoms' ....

    It also mentions bacterial translocation .... Or bacteria in the lymphatic system .... That is why CFS keeps coming back .....
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
    NK17 likes this.
  14. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    @Elph68 So what is the summary? I read it and I am still confused (BF!).
  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    What I have previously mentioned about catalase deficiency also explains why the mucosa and epithelium function of the large intestine is disrupted allowing the poisoning to continue in the large intestine.

    All through this thread I have continually stated that the research and answers are all out there and this document, I believe, is probably one of the reasons why there is no money for CFS research by the drug companies.....

    The only way I see to get research money is to show the governments that this can become a pandemic and cripple a national economy .... As a regional scientist, I could tell that story ....
  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I will explain this a little further .... But in a nutshell, hydrogen sulfide that enters the bloodstream directly from the colon (large or small), bypasses the bodies H2S detoxification system and causes a complete systemic malfunction .... HPA axis, mitochondria, CNS, respiratory, immune system, circulatory, brain .... The lot .... And sends cytokines production into overdrive .... (Sound familiar)

    A multiple system dysfunction .... And the amount required is minuscule ....

    And it is well documented, due to industrial accidents from hydrogen sulfide, and people living in high H2S polluted atmospheres ....

    It is transient, so not detectable all the time, is compounding, so the damage that is done keeps getting worse, and is mostly reversible, once the body has had a chance recover ....

    And I believe catalase deficiency allows hydrogen peroxide to disrupt the mucosal and epithelial function in the large intestine resulting in the hydrogen sulfide protection being lost in the large intestine allowing it to enter the bloodstream directly from there ....

    Normal flora, producing toxic substances in genetically (catalase) deficient individuals ....

    The undetectable infection .....
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
    aimossy likes this.
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Patents usually mean absolutely nothing. Basically someone had an idea, and ran down get it registered. Often it's little more than random musings.
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    What is a regional scientist?
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    In a lot of cases you are correct ... This patent however is fully referenced and matches what I have been proposing in this thread.

    It also explains why there is no research money ....
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014

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