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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    Thank you, kisekishiawase, Sidereal, Elph68 and 3 others , for your likes. They mean a lot. Iz
    rosie26 likes this.
  2. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    The moment I read the study concluding that herpesviruses trigger a change in human gut bacteria, i felt like everything made sense.

    A virus, any virus, has the potential to alter the microbiome.

    You become infected. E.g HSV1 makes you ill for a few days. Your body locates, summons antibodies to remove it and it is destroyed. But the altered bacteria is not reverted.

    Hence scientists for decades have searched for the active initial virus, But they can't find it because the immune system already removed it. The virus triggered the change in bacteria which has now become the offending pathogen giving you the symptoms you call CFS.

    This results in the phenomenon we call 'the undetectable infection'.

    I used to have a million conflicting pieces of information and theories clouding my head. Now it's much clearer.

    Now we have the target, we must destroy it.
  3. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Some probiotics work on fixing the leaky gut and also compete with the pathogens, thus reducing the numbers.
    Izola likes this.
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I haven't gone away ...... I am not sure if I have put this up before but it explains the mechanism of disbyosis and increased intestinal permeability by protease producing strains of not so normal flora in the gut ....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3837251/

    Once these bacteria damage the mucosal layer ... then the war with the immune system begins ..... Those people who have a genetic disposition will develop IBD (Chrohns, colitis) The rest of us have IBS and a leaky gut ...

    It is not unreasonable to deduce that while these strains remain in the gut ... there will always be an element of gut leakage and this condition will never be fully cured .....
    Izola likes this.
  5. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Ontario
    I hope you are still here Elph. In this post you say streptococcus sanguinis and parasanguinis (which are viridans strains) should only be found in the tartar on your teeth.... not in your throat .... bowel.

    However, in post #215 you post a study which says "The viridans group streptococci (VGS) are a heterogeneous group of organisms that can be human commensals, colonizing the gastrointestinal and genitourinary tracts in addition to the oral mucosa."

    Can you elaborate on why you don't think they should be anywhere but the tartar on the teeth ?
  6. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi GP,

    It seems that it is the strains of viridans strep which is the issue .... the ones that cause the problem (such as those from the mitis group) have a mechanism that makes them pathogenic which is not 'normal flora'.

    Streptococcus sanguinis/parasnaguinis (and enterococcus and others) produce a protease which induces auto-immunity and inflammation, they also produce super oxide and hydrogen peroxide, bad types of lactic acid and form biofilms. When all these genes are turned on in these strains, you have bacteria that can ravage the immune system. The papers I have read say they are commensual, but are rarely isolated anywhere other than the teeth.

    If you read through these threads, you will also see that I said antibiotic use has turned on the pathogenic genes of these bacteria. They have always had the genes to be pathogenic but their relationship has been symbiotic. Activation of pathogenic genes is the bacterias defence mechanism and they are then no longer normal. By disrupting the numbers of less pathogenic bacteria (through virus attack or further abx usage etc.) The mucosal biodiversity changes from symbiotic to pathogenic ....

    I have uploaded a brief that I sent to an infectious disease specialist recently, I can't dump the whole lot on anybody because it seems to be too big a stretch for their conservative minds ....

    But I am still on it ...

    Cheers.

    Attached Files:

    Izola likes this.
  7. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Something I may not have mentioned previously.....

    On the 12th of Feb I e-mailed Dr Ian Lipkin and I actually got a response ... I attached a letter to the e-mail with some of my research and a possible treatment program ......

    Dear Sir,

    My personal experience and desktop research says that there are protease producing strains of normal flora that cause chronic inflammation, are able to evade the immune system and hide out in the lymphatic system, which results in immune system failure.

    Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis is on the top of my list, enterococcus faecalis comes next ...

    How do we get treatment??

    Dr Lipkin's Response ....

    Thanks for your note. I appreciate that you have a plausible hypothesis and want to go straight to a potential cure whether antibiotic or phage; however, our team has decided to first focus on population-based microbiome surveillance and characterization.....

    In short, Dr Lipkin agrees the theory I am presenting is plausible .... I also have the same response from one of Asia's leading microbiologists ..... The Asian university has also stated that Australian Doctors will never agree to what I am presenting ..... The ramifications are far too horrible ...... Pathogenic strains of normal flora ....

    The undetectable infection ..............
    Izola likes this.
  8. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Just a little more for you GP,

    This article further discusses how Viridans Streptococcus (particularly sanguinis and mitis group) significantly increases the permeability of epithelial monolayers with a disruption of actin cytoskeleton (leaky gut) and induces interleukin 6 production.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetc....1371/journal.pone.0088136&representation=PDF

    The article also suggests that through this action of ROS, it changes the microbiota as it is able to kill off competing bacteria. I keep putting forward that just because they are viridans strep, it doesn't mean they are safe! This is why they have been overlooked by the medical profession ....

    Pathogenic strains of normal flora (Viridans Streptococcus/Enterococcus) = The undetectable infection

    Even today the doctor I am seeing said there is nothing wrong with me, I need to see a psychologist ....

    My BP was 180/120, my kidney function is down to 65%, my other blood works are all over the place .... So I suppose I am stressed, maybe I ought to just go and sit under a pyramid and funnel some good karma .... jeez :(
    globalpilot and Izola like this.
  9. Izola

    Izola Senior Member

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    Perhaps your doctor needs to sit under a pyramid and funnel some intelligence. Jeez-2 :(:(
    Elph68, rosie26 and Iquitos like this.
  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I have found something I believe is significant ... Really significant!!

    Those of you that read this thread know that I keep mentioning protease and hydrogen peroxide and how these chemicals cause leaky gut and chronic inflammation .... Well those of you who are interested in this theory needs to read this ....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7487577

    What this paper says that normally there is more hydrogen peroxide consuming bacteria in your flora than hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria (and strep sanguinis is named) .... If it is the other way round .... Then there is excess hydrogen peroxide produced ....

    Hydrogen peroxide stimulates interleukin 6 production ....

    So when biofilms are formed that contain hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria that outnumber hydrogen peroxide consuming bacteria .... IBS, leaky gut and entry into the lymphatic system ....

    I wonder how hard it will be to prove that we have this imbalance? I have a strong feeling that this is one of the main differences between us and so called normal people who carry the same strains ..... A question that is regularly asked in this forum .....
    globalpilot and brenda like this.
  11. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    And for those who haven't picked it up yet .... Hydrogen Peroxide = ROS
  12. Antares in NYC

    Antares in NYC Senior Member

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    Hi Jon,

    Would you be so kind to link that study? I would love to read it. It does make a lot of sense in theory.
  13. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    Hi Antares,

    The link to the study was actually on PR on a thread created by someone a few months ago. I'll scour archives to see if I can dig it up.

    I'll say one thing though, gut bacteria has been shown time and time again to react defensively in the event of trauma (viral infection e.g). So there is no surprise there. But then the cause or effect question comes into play...

    Anyway, watch out for Pridgens study. Some have started his protocol after someone 'leaked' it onto the net.
  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Yep
  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    These bacteria are invaders .... this is an overgrowth of alpha haemolitic biofilm forming bacteria .... or normal flora ...

    Ever tried getting a limpet off a rock?? that is what these bacteria are like ..... and they kill their opposition, which is why probiotics don't work ........ And they are in the lymphatic system blasting out protease and hydrogen peroxide (equivalent or higher than ROS) which activates further ROS from cells along with inflammatory cykotines, nk cells, IgA and IgG antibodies and whatever else the immune system throws in there .....

    I will put all this in a dot point document with references (now i have found them) so people can take to their doctors.

    I know I have concentrated on Strep and enterococcus in this thread, but certain species of prevotella, lactobacillus (and others) are also prolific hydrogen peroxide, protease and lactic acid producers.....
  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Can someone please give me a link to a paper that discusses virus attack altering the microbione please?

    Thanks.
  17. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    Where did these bugs come from,have they evolved from becoming antibiotic resistant.I think there could be something to youre ideas,best wishes
  18. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    They are classed as 'opportunistic' and yes, antibiotics has been a major factor in their evolution ...

    Cheers
  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Cornwall, UK
    A number of studies report lower IgA levels in ME, and natural killer activity is also lower, among other things.

    You will find this info from a page search of this huge ME Research UK document.
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci,

    That is exactly right, and is not contradictory to what I said. The fact is ME sufferers are unable to produce energy to run the bodies systems. Therefore antibody production and the like is unable to meet the demand. Like running a car flat out and not filling up the tank with petrol .... eventually it will stop.

    Furthermore, it seems to me that there is a lead up to CFS that may not have been determined yet. This is the time when everything is in overdrive before the dysfunction. These are the undiagnosed, people who have been diagnosed with depression or mental illness, insomnia, food intolerences, diabetes, thyroid problems, kidney disease, allergies and dermatitis and a myriad of other conditions that are a precursor of immune system dysfunction but can be and are linked to high levels of circulating cytokines.

    Nice to know you are still keeping an eye on me ;)

    Thanks for the link :)

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