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The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    How do you know it will be published?
    maryb likes this.
  2. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci,

    Because I am doing post grad (honours) via publication .... If it isn't published, I don't get a post grad ...

    Cheers.
  3. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I caught up with my sister yesterday,

    She has chronic sore throat, swollen lymph glands in her neck, severe fatigue/brain fog and severe IBS .... started just before christmas .... seems her (now ex) boyfriend has been sleeping with a nurse .....

    Tests show 'normal flora' !!!

    This is BS!!!!!
  4. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Treatment:

    Azithromycin + Augmentin duo forte or Azithromycin + doxycyclene treatment protocols can work, depends on how many abx. you have had in the past ....

    These are the treatment options if you know your CFS is due to strep: (I loathe posting this .... make sure this is done only under doctor supervision) These are powerful abx. and can have serious side effects.....

    The length of time .... anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks .....

    Ramoplanin + Daptomycin (inj) + Streptomycin (inj) ... (6+ weeks??)

    Ramoplanin + Linezolid (4+ weeks??)

    Oral vancomycin + Augmentin Forte + iv vancomycin (not sure if oral and IV vancomycin can be taken together .... 4+ weeks)

    Oral vancomycin + Augmentin Duo Forte + Linezolid (4+ weeks) I really like this one as it is all oral

    For the guys, these bugs will be in your prostate .... and like all communicable diseases .... your sex partner will be a carrier in their urogenital tract .... These bugs thrive in prostatic fluid which is a solution of simple sugars ....

    If you don't kill these in your sex partner, they will always get back into your gut (if you are female) and there is still a risk for males ...

    I hope this helps ....
  5. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Let's see if I can dig up some Aussie treatment ......

    Dear Dr Wettstein,


    It seems that because of what I have been going through, I have uncovered something that is very significant and has the potential to really change peoples lives.


    When I came to you I suggested that I had picked up a pathogenic strain of enterococcus faecalis, I also suspected that I had some pathogenic strains of viridans streptococcus. I have found through desk top research that these bacteria can express a protease which induces inflammation in the host and results in antibody production and superantigens. I have further found that these bacteria (apart from causing disbyosis through superoxide production) cause colonic polyps and cancer. They are able to destroy DNA at the cellular level because of hydrogen peroxide production. My wife is currently having trouble with colonic polyps and vaginitis. It is the protease production that causes vaginitis/prostatitis but because it is from normal flora the condition is undetectable .... you have spoken to my wife and suggested probiotics and fiber .... This is not working either ...


    What I have also found is that these bacteria can cause a leaky gut and/or ulceration in the bowel due to what I have just presented. Once this happens they are able to get past the immune system and take up residence in the lymphatic system and cause chronic fatigue and auto-immune disease and a suite of other chronic conditions.


    The treatment you gave me worked while taking it, but now the symptoms are returning .... my prostate never fully recovered, the lymph nodes swelling never went, sore throat and eyes remain, I have gas and reflux and an unbelievable fatigue that comes and goes .... and my ASOT results are higher.


    I am now looking for a post graduate sponsor (microbiologist) and treatment to resolve this fully. I have had it confirmed by Dr Ian Lipkin from Columbia University in the US that this hypothesis is plausible. I believe society is on the verge of a pandemic and it has to be stopped or it will cripple the already overstressed health system. I am a regional scientist and this is of serious concern to me ....


    This has taken the entire medical system by surprise and it seems to me that nearly everyone is still asleep.


    Given that you work with the NSW University is there any chance we could work together on a post grad honours research project (Menzies Research at utas here in TAS is very interested), but I would need a microbiologist ... I need to check these bugs for protease expression and find them in the lymphatic system .... I believe this is the cause of more than half of CFS sufferers (Chronic viridans strep/enterococcus infection) and the reason why FMT does not work for CFS sufferers on its own .... add in IV Vancomycin or Linezolid for 4+ weeks and maybe streptomycin/gentomycin as any of the gut bugs can get into the lymphatic system once the gut has been breached. To finish the treatment off hit it with probiotics and a caveman diet (which is what I have been following) ... I reckon you are the only place that can totally cure CFS right now .....


    Are you prepared to look at any of these treatment protocols (or similar) for me?


    Ramoplanin + Daptomycin (inj) (+ Streptomycin (inj) ... )


    Ramoplanin + Linezolid


    I do not believe this one would work on me now .....

    Oral vancomycin + Augmentin Duo Forte + Linezolid


    I still need my 8yo daughter and wife treated also.


    I will take another bioscreen test to see what is still giving me grief in the gut, but we haven't achieved what we set out to do and I need further treatment ... Sorry to be a pain ..


    I have started an awareness campaign but I really need the right letters after my name to make a difference
    Katherine and Izola like this.
  6. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    For those of you who aren't convinced that strep sanguis is a bad boy. This report shows that they cause auto-immune disease ......

    Both the sera of patients with Behçet’s disease and Streptococcus sanguis stimulate membrane expression of hnRNP A2/B1 in endothelial cells
    2013, Vol. 42, No. 3 , Pages 241-246 (doi:10.3109/03009742.2012.733728) SB Cho1, Z Zheng1, S Cho1, KJ Ahn2, MJ Choi1, D-Y Kim1, KH Lee1, D Bang1 1Department of Dermatology and Cutaneous Biology Research Institute, Yonsei University College of Medicine Seul, and Jeju, Korea 2Department of Science Education, Jeju National University, Jeju, Korea Dongsik Bang, Department of Dermatology and Cutaneous Biology Research Institute, Yonsei University College of Medicine, 50 Yonsei-ro, Seodaemun-gu, Seoul 120-752, Korea.
    E-mail: dbang@yuhs.ac

    Objectives: Heterogeneous nuclear ribonucleoprotein (hnRNP) A2/B1 has been identified as a target antigen of anti-endothelial cell immunglobulin (Ig)A antibodies in patients with Behçet’s disease (BD). The aim was to investigate the effects of the sera from BD patients and Streptococcus sanguis on the subcellular expression of hnRNP A2/B1 in human dermal microvascular endothelial cells (HDMECs). Method: The sera of BD patients and healthy controls (HC) as well as cultured S. sanguis were used to stimulate HDMECs. Subcellular fractions were obtained from stimulated HDMECs and were subjected to immunoblot analyses. The distribution of hnRNP A2/B1 was investigated by immunocytochemistry and direct immunofluorescence study was performed in biopsy specimens of mucosal ulcers from BD patients.

    Results: BD patients’ sera increased the membrane expression of hnRNP A2/B1 in HDMECs after 12 and 24 h of incubation compared with HDMECs incubated with endothelial cell culture media and HC sera. S. sanguis also increased hnRNP A2/B1 in the cellular membrane. hnRNP A2/B1 mRNA level was also significantly upregulated in HDMECs incubated with BD patients’ sera and S. sanguis. Immunocytochemistry demonstrated marked expression of hnRNP A2/B1 in the cytoplasm and cellular membrane of HDMECs incubated with BD patients’ sera or S. sanguis. In addition, direct immunofluorescence experiments revealed the co-localization of serum IgA antibodies and monoclonal antibodies (mAbs) against hnRNP A2/B1 in tissue sections from ulcers of BD patients.

    Conclusions: Our data indicate that both the sera of BD patients with active disease and S. sanguis infection are inflammatory stimuli that can induce membranous hnRNP A2/B1 expression in HDMECs.
  7. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Who else has low white blood cell counts .... for the first time mine have hit the floor :(

    you may be interested in this article ...

    Zhonghua Kou Qiang Yi Xue Za Zhi. 2001 Sep;36(5):354-6.
    [Effects of Streptococcus sanguis on blood composition, blood pressure and cardiac dysfunction in rabbis].
    [Article in Chinese]
    Chen H1, Zhao M, Li J.
    Author information

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:
    To investigate effect of streptococcus sanguis on blood cell and cardiopulmonary changes.

    METHODS:
    133-79 strains of streptococcus sanguis (aggregation positive) were infused intravenously into rabbits. Before and 5, 10, 20, 30, 45, 60 min after infuse platelets count, leukocytes count, blood pressure and ECG were measured.

    RESULTS:
    After infused intravenously, both platelets and leukocytes count decreased remarkably (P < 0.01, n = 12). The ECG showed ST segment depression (> 0.06 mV). Diphasic blood pressure occurred (first hypertensive then hypotensive).

    CONCLUSIONS:
    Streptococcus sanguis 133-79 strains in circulation system might cause myocardia ischemia, blood pressure changes, peripheral circulation platelets and leukocytes decrease remarkably.

    Anyway .... seems this strep species has the ability to decrease white blood cell count .... streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis again. (Strep Sanguis was reclassified into sanguinis/parasanguinis just recently)
  8. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    not read all but IBS is treated pretty well in most with a low FODMAPS diet

    the PH D student who did the research inuding detailed bacterial anaylsis of participants' gut flora is Emma Halmos at Monash Uni Melbourne Australia

    stool samples while on and of the diet and in a high FODMAPS diet were frozen and sent to Britain for detailed analysis, for example

    She has just had a part of her research published in a medical journal called Gastorenterology - this month I believe so about jan/ feb 2014

    that may be of use - she did explain some of the detailed bacteriology to me but I did not absorb it all so the article may be of use to you.

    good luck

    ALly
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  9. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi Ally,

    Fodmaps are fermentable carbohydrates ... if you look at other threads I have posted I agree they need to be excluded ... BUT, it is the bugs that feed on these carbohydrates that are classed as normal flora which do the damage to the immune system (also presented in this and other threads) ...

    The irony is .... the bugs convert to metabolism instead of fermentation .... they still attack our system ... You can't win ....
    Jon_Tradicionali and Allyson like this.
  10. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    Hi Elph

    fructose to glucose ratio of any food is the issue in FODMAPs.....but I think the issue is some people do not tolerate them as they do not have the right bactieria to digest high fructose? not sure

    But the point is the stdy DID look at all the bacteria in the gat at the time so I thought it may feed in to your research

    will try and find the details for you

    cheers

    ALly
  11. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    Here is the link to the journal Gastroenterology
    http://www.gastrojournal.org/

    not the specific article - I think it was January 2014

    one of the top journals so my be some useful stuff there

    Best

    Ally
  12. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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  13. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    Australia, Melbourne
  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I might be if the research had actually been carried out on rabbis - at least they are human! :lol:
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  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Right now .... I am gobsmacked!!

    GI bacteria lymphatic translocation is a well known and researched scientific condition .....

    It is caused by increased intestinal permeability .....

    http://www.old-herborn-university.de/literature/books/OHUni_book_14_article_4.pdf
    http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4612-1222-5_9#page-1
    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...4QQj_gTUtwcmkPOfcy27Lpg&bvm=bv.61965928,d.dGI

    If these are nasty bacteria (pyogenic or puss forming), other than normal flora, you will have abscess in the lymphatic system, that is easy and treatable .... but it is the non pyogenic (non puss forming) bacteria in the lymphatic system which is the undetectable infection (viridans strep/enterococcus) which is at least half of the people on this forum, that research tells me is the cause of CFS ...

    So lets look at the real tests that you can do prove this .... not the bandaid tests that the doctors keep charging for ... The ones that just show us we are sick .... I already know that ....

    1. Comprehensive stool analysis
    2. D-lactate plasma levels
    3. peripheral blood cultures (PCR would be better)
    4. Lymph node culture http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0004198/
    5. If there is protein in your urine, Glomerular biopsy for IgA antibodies .....

    These tests will provide evidence that your CFS is caused by a bacterial infection ......

    I suggest you take a blood culture when you are at your sickest .....
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    The last link in your first list is interesting to me as it mentions benefit from glutamine, which I have been taking since 2012 as part of my leaky-gut regime. Here is a shorter link for your article.

    I think I posted this link earlier in the thread, which discusses how leaky gut could lead to autoimmunity, and it does mention the lymphatic system. I can't recall your reason(s) for concluding that the problem lies in pathogens hiding in the lymphatic system rather than the mechanisms proposed in various scientific papers - can you remind me/us?
  17. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci, even though you may not see it yet, you and I are actually on the same page ..... what I am saying is that the missing link is the lymphatic system. That is where the ongoing auto-immunity is generated and why that most people who fix their leaky gut still have ongoing auto-immune issues and usually never return to full pre-illness activity.

    The other mechanisms are all part of the whole picture .... Colonization of the lymphatic system is the missing link.

    Cheers.
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I think that the main differences between us are the levels of certainty and the relative importance we attribute to different theories and different parts and aspects of the chain(s) of causation. I have an open mind.

    BTW, I see that you have not participated in this thread on a paper from 2013 which appears to be on the line of research/theory that you favour and involves a researcher whose work I follow with great interest.
  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I reckon the main difference is I have only studied and followed what is relevant to my situation, and I have lab results to support what I say. My level of interest therefore is not distracted by other areas. Even KDM says that a group of CFS sufferers are from streptococcus/enterococcus .... I have just followed through and found the why!

    Any bacteria or virus that causes the body to produce antigens is a potential cause for this condition. S. sanguis infection are inflammatory stimuli that can induce membranous hnRNP A2/B1 expression in HDMECs which is the target of IgA antibodies .... or auto-immunity ....

    So anything up to half of the people on this forum, I believe have a streptococcus/enterococcus infection as the cause of their CFS.

    Here is the thing .... as soon as you can link CFS to an infection, the game changes politically and medically. So in order to change the attitudes, only one theory needs to be proven .... This is not a one size fits all disease, but by being smarter about tackling the problem, a cure will be quicker coming ....

    I also believe that strep is probably not the only cause.
  20. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Elph

    Why would taking probiotics make us feel better in regards to your theory?

    Are the probiotics fighting the strep/entero?

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