The Undetectable Infection

[Elph68]

I've been doing a lot of that for 19 months after reading leaky-gut papers, making connections and doing further reading and checking, as I have detailed in the leaky-gut forum. It has helped a lot with multiple symptoms and I have high hopes for continuing improvement. But I use grapefruit seed extract instead of pharmaceutical antibiotics.

I note that it is claimed that the gut dysbiosis in question causes constipation, but a high proportion of us appear to have diarrhoea. This supports the suspicion that there are subgroups, with different people having different types of dysbiosis, definitions of which can be found here.

People with diarrhoeal dysbiosis have been found to benefit from gluten-free diets, as is also reported in one or two threads. Many of us here have benefited from this.

43% of ME/CFS patients have an over-representation of Streptococcus, 18% have an over-representation of enterococcus .... according to bioscreen, this is over half. They have not reported on patients that are colonized with these but aren't over-represented.

Prevotella over-representation is another sub-group .....

 

[Thinktank]

@Elph68, What do you make of this? Metametrix Gi effects stool DNA test.

Bacteroides spp. borderline low
Clostridia spp. very low, almost non-existent
Prevotella spp. medium
Fusobacteria low
Streptomyces very high
Mycoplasma medium

Lactobacillus medium
Bifido very low, almost non-existent

E-coli, borderline low.

Positive for opportunistic bacteria Achromobacter/Alcaligenes spp.

 

[Asklipia]

As an aside about Prevotella, here is a very interesting page :
http://humanfoodproject.com/from-me...t-time-to-trade-in-your-george-foreman-grill/

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68, What do you make of this? Metametrix Gi effects stool DNA test.

Bacteroides spp. borderline low
Clostridia spp. very low, almost non-existent
Prevotella spp. medium
Fusobacteria low
Streptomyces very high
Mycoplasma medium

Lactobacillus medium
Bifido very low, almost non-existent

E-coli, borderline low.

Positive for opportunistic bacteria Achromobacter/Alcaligenes spp.

Hi Thinktank,

I have no idea what all that means except that it doesn't look very nice, and is probably making you sick ....

 

[PDXhausted]

Hi @Elph68 -- I've found this thread really interesting and I've been meaning to post some of my experience but haven't had a chance yet, but wanted to ask you about your last post... When you say that strep increases IgG for certain foods, do you have a study for that or is that based on your experience?

I recently seem to have developed some kind of pelvic infection, that I suspect might be strep related. I'm not sure of this, but I tested positive for both beta and gamma hemolytic strep in a stool test, and wondering if GBS may have crossed into other regions. I never had a problem with wheat or some other grains until i developed this infection and now all of the sudden I can't tolerate certain foods. So I'm really interested in reading more on this topic or hearing other people's experiences.

 

[Elph68]

Hi @Elph68 -- I've found this thread really interesting and I've been meaning to post some of my experience but haven't had a chance yet, but wanted to ask you about your last post... When you say that strep increases IgG for certain foods, do you have a study for that or is that based on your experience?

I recently seem to have developed some kind of pelvic infection, that I suspect might be strep related. I'm not sure of this, but I tested positive for both beta and gamma hemolytic strep in a stool test, and wondering if GBS may have crossed into other regions. I never had a problem with wheat or some other grains until i developed this infection and now all of the sudden I can't tolerate certain foods. So I'm really interested in reading more on this topic or hearing other people's experiences.

Hi PDX, that information I posted on LgG was from the research lab at Melbourne university and I don't know if it is published yet ....

GBS is a real nasty one, that was the second bug they isolated from my throat 3 years ago ... If you are in the US you are a little luckier than the rest of us, there is a lab I have found that tests specifically for Aerobic Vaginitis, here is the press release. http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2012/04/10/PH84155 You need a doctor to sign off on the test though, and they do cause ongoing issues. AV is not widely recognised yet and it was one of those moments at my GP that wasn't real funny ....

With GBS, you may show positive to ASOT or DNase B antibodies ....

Cheers.

 

[Elph68]

Time to turn up the heat on this .... I have communicated with Dr Lipkin, I sent him a copy of what I found and asked him how we can deal with it ... I have also communicated with Bioscreen .....

Darren Elphinstone
From: W. Ian Lipkin [wil2001@columbia.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 February 2014 8:04 PM
To: Darren Elphinstone
Subject: Re: Gut Bugs and CFS -
Page 1 of 1
13/02/2014
Thanks for your note. I appreciate that you have a plausible hypothesis and want to go straight to
a potential cure whether antibiotic or phage; however, our team has decided to first focus on
population-based microbiome surveillance and characterization. Sorry to disappoint you but I am
not comfortable that we know enough to do otherwise.
Ian Lipkin

On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:03 AM, Darren Elphinstone <Darren@elphinstoneenterprises.com.au>
wrote:
Dear Sir,
My personal experience and desktop research says that there are protease producing strains of normal
flora that cause chronic inflammation, are able to evade the immune system and hide out in the lymphatic
system, which results in immune system failure.

How the hell do I get the medical community to listen??

How do we get treatment??

Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis is on the top of my list, enterococcus faecalis comes next ...

Cheers.

I will personally force these guys into finding a cure .... It is right under their friggin nose ...

BTW .... not mentioned this before, but I am looking very hard at phage therapy for a cure rather than antibiotics .... phages are bacterial strain specific and don't wipe out the good flora, and they hunt the bugs out of the lymphatic system ...

I have a clinic in Georgia (Europe) that is willing to try .... And agrees also that what I am presenting is plausible.

 

[Elph68]

DR Henry Butt

Bioscreen

University of Melbourne

2 Park Drive,

Parkville VIC 3052


Dear Dr Butt,


I am writing to you as I can see that you and your staff are the world leaders in CFS research and treatment. But I am still amazed at how many people do not know of the Bioscreen facility or of the great work that you and your team are doing. It is because of your expertise that I would like to ask you a couple of very simple questions.


Three years ago some funny things started to happen. I started having recurrent canker sores and ulcers in my mouth and my eyes became sore. The next thing the lymph nodes in my wife’s neck became swollen and she also had sore throat/eyes. This was then followed by vaginitis in my wife and prostatitis in me as well as chronic sore throat and swollen lymph nodes. My 8 year old daughter then developed chronic sore throat, swollen lymph nodes, vaginitis and IBS ….. This is where our nightmare began! Further to this within the last 10 months I too have developed IBS and 3 months ago what started out to be quite severe CFS symptoms that have since been reduced thanks to combination antibiotic therapy from the CDD in Sydney. This is the reason why today I ask you for your assistance.


Even though my wife and I have had numerous tests, swabs, jabs and probes which have all returned ‘normal flora’, the best ‘diagnosis’ has been that we are all suffering from a psychological issue because ‘there is nothing out of the ordinary’ there. This is where my research differs from the medical professionals’ diagnosis. When I said to the infectious disease specialist that it was like I was allergic to something in my flora, it was attacking all my mucous membranes, he said that he knew of no such syndrome. The research tells me that there is such a syndrome and it is protease producing viridans streptococcus/enterococcus. This process could be further complicated through biofilm forming super oxide and hydrogen peroxide producing streptococcus/enterococcus and lactobacillus. I have been contacted by people whose whole families here in Tasmania are being attacked in the same way and are unable to obtain answers through mainstream medicine.


The first problem I therefore have is proving that the strains of streptococcus/enterococcus my family is carrying are in fact protease producing strains and are causing our chronic inflammation. Is this a task that Bioscreen would be prepared to undertake (at my cost) or is it possible to recommend a lab that will?


The second question I have is with regards to family treatment. It seems to me that even though CDD have fixed my leaky gut and acidosis symptoms, I still have swollen lymph nodes, prostatitis, sore throat and various auto-immune type problems. I can only surmise, but after a leaky gut, I believe the bacteria that IgA antibodies are ineffective against, such as strep sanguinis/parasanguinis, are now in my lymphatic system and are destroying my immune system from within.


In order to resolve my issues fully, I believe an IV is needed (such as Gentamycin) as these bacteria are now resistant to the usual oral antibiotics which have all been able to clear my wife in the past. IV antibiotics as you know would take me a miracle to obtain and I would never get it across the board for all of my family. As an alternative I have been in communication with a clinic in Tiblis (Georgia) and through discussions and research I presented to them, they are very interested in my family’s situation and my pathogenic normal flora protease theory. They have agreed to treat my family using phage therapy targeting the streptococcus/enterococcus species. In order to do this I either have to fly my entire family over to Georgia (5 people) and be tested and treated in their clinic for up to a month at a significant cost of well over $50k (not out of my reach). Alternatively, a lab here in Australia could isolate the strains and ship them as live bacteria to the clinic to have the phage preparation made specifically for the isolated strains and the solution shipped back to Australia. I have checked with customs and quarantine and phages are allowable for importation.


So my second question is therefore would Bioscreen staff (at my cost) be prepared to grow and isolate the bacteria for exportation to Georgia? Or would you be able to provide details of an Australian lab that would?


As a Regional Scientist I have been on the lookout for publishable subjects to submit via the Institute of Regional Development (UTAS) here in Burnie. Because of the last 3 years of research I can now argue that ‘The Undetectable Infection’ is a likely cause for chronic conditions such as certain cancers, kidney disease, thyroid problems, IBS/IBD, vaginitis, prostatitis, arthritis, diabetes, liver disease, auto-immune disease, blindness, infertility, tinnitus and various other conditions. The difference being, I can also put a cost to the community on it, which I believe is currently huge. I will then be able to push politically the ineffectiveness of the current testing procedures and that by spending more on research and training; they will save in the long term in total health spending.


I look forward to hearing from you or your staff with regards to the questions I have asked.


Thank you for your assistance.


Best Regards,




Darren Elphinstone.

 

[Elph68]

No longer shall I sit in silence .......

Ms Michelle O’Byrne
Tasmanian Minister for Health
Ground Floor, Public Buildings
53 St John Street,
Launceston, TAS 7250


Dear Ms O’Byrne,


I am writing to you to bring your attention to a potential pandemic which I seem to have identified here in Tasmania. The condition is totally undetectable using current laboratory techniques and has the potential to cripple the state health budget. Because of my discovery and subsequent ‘speaking out’ against the inadequacy of the system and the chronic illness that has been caused to my family and me, I have been threatened with legal action from Dr. Alistair McGregor, Dr Robert Jensen and North West Pathology and my GP of 20 years Dr Nicholas Barnes refuses to see me again. I ask you Ms O’Byrne, is this the sort of medical system that your government promotes? I require an explanation please!


Three years ago some funny things started to happen. I started having recurrent canker sores and ulcers in my mouth and my eyes became sore. The next thing the lymph nodes in my wife’s neck became swollen and she also developed sore throat/eyes. This was then followed by vaginitis in my wife and prostatitis in me as well as chronic sore throat and swollen lymph nodes. My 8 year old daughter then developed chronic sore throat, swollen lymph nodes, vaginitis and IBS ….. This is where our nightmare began! Further to this within the last 10 months I too have developed IBS and 4 months ago what started out to be quite severe CFS symptoms have since been reduced thanks to combination antibiotic therapy from the CDD in Sydney. This treatment however was not totally effective as these bacteria are able to evade the immune system and the body’s defences and have the ability to take up residence in the lymphatic system where it is able to induce an auto-immune type response and system wide inflammation.


Even though my wife and I have had numerous tests, swabs, jabs and probes which have all returned ‘normal flora’, the best ‘diagnosis’ has been that we are all suffering from a psychological issue because ‘there is nothing out of the ordinary’ there. This is where my research differs from the medical professionals’ diagnosis. When I said to the infectious disease specialist (Dr. McGregor) that it was like I was allergic to something in my flora, it was attacking all my mucous membranes; he said that he knew of no such syndrome. The research tells me that there is such a syndrome and it is protease producing normal flora. These are superbugs and have slipped totally under the medical professionals radar, They are viridans streptococcus (The streptococcus mitis group in particular streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis) and enterococcus faecalis. The process of chronic inflammation seems to be further complicated through biofilm forming super oxide and hydrogen peroxide producing streptococcus/enterococcus and lactobacillus (as well as others). I have been contacted by people whose whole families here in Tasmania are being attacked in the same way and are unable to obtain answers through mainstream medicine. And this is why I believe this is becoming a pandemic, and requires immediate ministerial intervention.


As a result of the last 3 years of desk top research I can now argue that ‘The Undetectable Infection’ is a likely cause for chronic conditions such as certain cancers, kidney disease, thyroid problems, IBS/IBD, vaginitis, prostatitis, arthritis, diabetes, liver disease, auto-immune disease, blindness, infertility, tinnitus and various other conditions. I believe these superbugs are becoming a huge cost to the community because of their ability to cause chronic disease. I also believe a novel approach to healthcare is not just treat and manage symptoms, but cure disease and make people well …. Maybe we would then need less doctors ….


Unfortunately the ‘They were just following procedure’ answer will not cut it in this instance …..


Thank you for your assistance.


Best Regards,




Darren Elphinstone.


cc. Chris Bartlett
Jeremy Rockliff
Julian O’Brien
Ashton Denehey

 

[Izola]

Time to turn up the heat on this .... I have communicated with Dr Lipkin, I sent him a copy of what I found and asked him how we can deal with it ... I have also communicated with Bioscreen .....

Darren Elphinstone
From: W. Ian Lipkin [wil2001@columbia.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 February 2014 8:04 PM
To: Darren Elphinstone
Subject: Re: Gut Bugs and CFS -
Page 1 of 1
13/02/2014
Thanks for your note. I appreciate that you have a plausible hypothesis and want to go straight to
a potential cure whether antibiotic or phage; however, our team has decided to first focus on
population-based microbiome surveillance and characterization. Sorry to disappoint you but I am
not comfortable that we know enough to do otherwise.
Ian Lipkin

On Feb 12, 2014, at 12:03 AM, Darren Elphinstone <Darren@elphinstoneenterprises.com.au>
wrote:
Dear Sir,
My personal experience and desktop research says that there are protease producing strains of normal
flora that cause chronic inflammation, are able to evade the immune system and hide out in the lymphatic
system, which results in immune system failure.

How the hell do I get the medical community to listen??

How do we get treatment??

Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis is on the top of my list, enterococcus faecalis comes next ...

Cheers.

I will personally force these guys into finding a cure .... It is right under their friggin nose ...

BTW .... not mentioned this before, but I am looking very hard at phage therapy for a cure rather than antibiotics .... phages are bacterial strain specific and don't wipe out the good flora, and they hunt the bugs out of the lymphatic system ...

I have a clinic in Georgia (Europe) that is willing to try .... And agrees also that what I am presenting is plausible.

Would you mind explaining a bit more about the microphages, what they do and how, Especially with strain specific bacteria and other gut flora? A whole seminar on the lymphatic system would be great. I would like to know and I'm sure others would. Thanks Izola

 

[Izola]

No longer shall I sit in silence .......

Ms Michelle O’Byrne
Tasmanian Minister for Health
Ground Floor, Public Buildings
53 St John Street,
Launceston, TAS 7250


Dear Ms O’Byrne,


I am writing to you to bring your attention to a potential pandemic which I seem to have identified here in Tasmania. The condition is totally undetectable using current laboratory techniques and has the potential to cripple the state health budget. Because of my discovery and subsequent ‘speaking out’ against the inadequacy of the system and the chronic illness that has been caused to my family and me, I have been threatened with legal action from Dr. Alistair McGregor, Dr Robert Jensen and North West Pathology and my GP of 20 years Dr Nicholas Barnes refuses to see me again. I ask you Ms O’Byrne, is this the sort of medical system that your government promotes? I require an explanation please!


Three years ago some funny things started to happen. I started having recurrent canker sores and ulcers in my mouth and my eyes became sore. The next thing the lymph nodes in my wife’s neck became swollen and she also developed sore throat/eyes. This was then followed by vaginitis in my wife and prostatitis in me as well as chronic sore throat and swollen lymph nodes. My 8 year old daughter then developed chronic sore throat, swollen lymph nodes, vaginitis and IBS ….. This is where our nightmare began! Further to this within the last 10 months I too have developed IBS and 4 months ago what started out to be quite severe CFS symptoms have since been reduced thanks to combination antibiotic therapy from the CDD in Sydney. This treatment however was not totally effective as these bacteria are able to evade the immune system and the body’s defences and have the ability to take up residence in the lymphatic system where it is able to induce an auto-immune type response and system wide inflammation.


Even though my wife and I have had numerous tests, swabs, jabs and probes which have all returned ‘normal flora’, the best ‘diagnosis’ has been that we are all suffering from a psychological issue because ‘there is nothing out of the ordinary’ there. This is where my research differs from the medical professionals’ diagnosis. When I said to the infectious disease specialist (Dr. McGregor) that it was like I was allergic to something in my flora, it was attacking all my mucous membranes; he said that he knew of no such syndrome. The research tells me that there is such a syndrome and it is protease producing normal flora. These are superbugs and have slipped totally under the medical professionals radar, They are viridans streptococcus (The streptococcus mitis group in particular streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis) and enterococcus faecalis. The process of chronic inflammation seems to be further complicated through biofilm forming super oxide and hydrogen peroxide producing streptococcus/enterococcus and lactobacillus (as well as others). I have been contacted by people whose whole families here in Tasmania are being attacked in the same way and are unable to obtain answers through mainstream medicine. And this is why I believe this is becoming a pandemic, and requires immediate ministerial intervention.


As a result of the last 3 years of desk top research I can now argue that ‘The Undetectable Infection’ is a likely cause for chronic conditions such as certain cancers, kidney disease, thyroid problems, IBS/IBD, vaginitis, prostatitis, arthritis, diabetes, liver disease, auto-immune disease, blindness, infertility, tinnitus and various other conditions. I believe these superbugs are becoming a huge cost to the community because of their ability to cause chronic disease. I also believe a novel approach to healthcare is not just treat and manage symptoms, but cure disease and make people well …. Maybe we would then need less doctors ….


Unfortunately the ‘They were just following procedure’ answer will not cut it in this instance …..


Thank you for your assistance.


Best Regards,




Darren Elphinstone.


cc. Chris Bartlett
Jeremy Rockliff
Julian O’Brien
Ashton Denehey

**********************************************************

I am so sorry for you and your family. It is wonderful we have Dr. Lipkin on our side. It is easy to splatter your anger even at those who would help, yet that display of anger will not further our progress. Izola

 

[Izola]

Bravo, Ren Bravo. Your statement is incredibly compelling. It is heartening that we have you to speak so eloquently for us in this and your many other posts. Thank You

 

[Izola]

43% of ME/CFS patients have an over-representation of Streptococcus, 18% have an over-representation of enterococcus .... according to bioscreen, this is over half. They have not reported on patients that are colonized with these but aren't over-represented.

Prevotella over-representation is another sub-group .....

I've been doing a lot of that for 19 months after reading leaky-gut papers, making connections and doing further reading and checking, as I have detailed in the leaky-gut forum. It has helped a lot with multiple symptoms and I have high hopes for continuing improvement. But I use grapefruit seed extract instead of pharmaceutical antibiotics.

I note that it is claimed that the gut dysbiosis in question causes constipation, but a high proportion of us appear to have diarrhoea. This supports the suspicion that there are subgroups, with different people having different types of dysbiosis, definitions of which can be found here.

People with diarrhoeal dysbiosis have been found to benefit from gluten-free diets, as is also reported in one or two threads. Many of us here have benefited from this.

********************************************************

Possibly those with constipation suffer from the effects of certain pain medications otherwise we'd be occupying the latrines, not "cfs."

 

[est_sunshine]

I have POTS and IBS, and a high strep salivarius and parasanguis with no ecoli gut bioscreen test result. I think my health has improved gradually as my IBS improved using GAPS and Dr Wahls diet. 10 days ago I had a scale and clean done at the dentist and my IBS is back with a vengeance. I'm upset all my diet hard work has been undone and am now seriously considering Erythromycin to knock it down. I'm so over it

 

[Izola]

I have POTS and IBS, and a high strep salivarius and parasanguis with no ecoli gut bioscreen test result. I think my health has improved gradually as my IBS improved using GAPS and Dr Wahls diet. 10 days ago I had a scale and clean done at the dentist and my IBS is back with a vengeance. I'm upset all my diet hard work has been undone and am now seriously considering Erythromycin to knock it down. I'm so over it

Its a mess of a disease. Sorry you are going through this after all you have done to fight back.

 

[Elph68]

Ok ... I am not going to hold any punches with this and I am sorry if anybody takes this the wrong way ....

These are protease producing faculative anaerobes that normally inhabit the mouth that cause chronic inflammation and the immune system to go into overload which eventually turns on the body.

These bacteria are highly virulent, we have picked them up by 4 main ways.

1. Born with them
2. medically acquired (from hospitals, dentists, massage, doctors, nurses etc.)
3. Close personal contact with another person
4. These are the bugs that could potentially be caught off toilet seats, door knobs, handling money, eating food at a restaurant, shopping, sharing food and drink, catching a bus .... anywhere you touch after someone else has touched .... They can live for up to 30 days on exposed surfaces and for up to 70 days without food and can be carried by your pets.

These bacteria have the potential to cripple a nation's economy .... in the next 10 to 20 years the spread will reach critical mass and then we have a serious problem .....

And every time somebody goes to the doctor with a sore throat and gets abx. .... The situation just became worse ....

If you want funding for this .... then you have to create hysteria, and believe me, we need to ..... I have only picked on a couple of the bugs, that being Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguins and enterococcus faecalis .... there is more!

Remember the swine flue hysteria, well this is worse, we are the tip of the iceberg and I have beaten my head against the wall for 3 years knowing what this was .... When I say I will force them, I mean politicians, I am a regional scientist and I know how to hit politicians .... show them where the money is going ..... Show them how they can save it ..... Make them the hero ....

I have now brought this to the attention of our Health Minister here in Australia .... I now wonder if he wants to be remembered in history as the man who stopped a pandemic, or the man who let it take hold .....

That is how you get things done .....

 

[Aileen]

@Elph68 Would a test from either the uBiome or American Gut Project be able to tell us if we have the critters you are talking about? My apologies, but I am woefully ignorant on the topic of microbes.

 

[MeSci]

Ok ... I am not going to hold any punches with this and I am sorry if anybody takes this the wrong way ....

These are protease producing faculative anaerobes that normally inhabit the mouth that cause chronic inflammation and the immune system to go into overload which eventually turns on the body.

These bacteria are highly virulent, we have picked them up by 4 main ways.

1. Born with them
2. medically acquired (from hospitals, dentists, massage, doctors, nurses etc.)
3. Close personal contact with another person
4. These are the bugs that could potentially be caught off toilet seats, door knobs, handling money, eating food at a restaurant, shopping, sharing food and drink, catching a bus .... anywhere you touch after someone else has touched .... They can live for up to 30 days on exposed surfaces and for up to 70 days without food and can be carried by your pets.

These bacteria have the potential to cripple a nation's economy .... in the next 10 to 20 years the spread will reach critical mass and then we have a serious problem .....

And every time somebody goes to the doctor with a sore throat and gets abx. .... The situation just became worse ....

If you want funding for this .... then you have to create hysteria, and believe me, we need to ..... I have only picked on a couple of the bugs, that being Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguins and enterococcus faecalis .... there is more!

Remember the swine flue hysteria, well this is worse, we are the tip of the iceberg and I have beaten my head against the wall for 3 years knowing what this was .... When I say I will force them, I mean politicians, I am a regional scientist and I know how to hit politicians .... show them where the money is going ..... Show them how they can save it ..... Make them the hero ....

I have now brought this to the attention of our Health Minister here in Australia .... I now wonder if he wants to be remembered in history as the man who stopped a pandemic, or the man who let it take hold .....

That is how you get things done .....

Personally I would avoid the word 'hysteria' like the plague (sic!).

 

[Elph68]

I have managed to convince the Menzies Research Institute here in Tasmania that this is a potential disaster waiting to happen ... They have agreed to sponsor me for post-graduate research into these bugs .... It will give me a microbiology qualification (Research) The research will be to take a small group of CFS/Fibromyalgia sufferers and check for protease expression in normal flora streptococcus/enterococcus bacteria. I am hoping we can also test for bacteria in the lymphatic system ... This will be published and hopefully give you something to take to your doctors inside of 18 months ...

Still negotiating how this will all work .... so we will see what happens ...

Keep you all posted ....

 

[Elph68]

If I can prove there are protease producing strains of Streptococcus sanguinis/parasanguinis and/or enterococcus faecalis in the system .... I have enough desk top research to link it all together .... then the big guys can test staph, lactococcus, prevotella, rothia, lactobacillus e-coli and all the other faculative anaerobes which have the potential to produce the same/similar protease which causes the chronic inflammation and the immune system overload ....