1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
New Exercise Study Brings Both Illumination and Questions
Simon McGrath looks at new objective evidence of abnormal response to exercise in ME/CFS patients, and the questions that researchers are still trying to answer ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    My other 2 daughters are normal .... none of these show up in their results ....

    Do you have sanguinis or parasanguinis in your results??
  2. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    Likes:
    111
    Not sure it does not say. Are they worse than the rest?

    It breaks the streptococcus down into alpha and beta-haemolytic which I am high in and non-haemolytic which I have non of.

    My test was done in 07 and it looks set out a little different to how they do it now.

    I am low for total bacteroids, lactobacillus and clostridium

    High for enterococcus, streptococcus, staphylococcus, kliebsiella and bifidobacterium.

    Do my results fit in with your ideas?
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
  3. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    You are even worse .... You have known pathogens as well :(

    But yes, you have a gut infection, otherwise called a disbyosis ...
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    Likes:
    111
    When we get infected with these things can they cause stomach upset?

    My illness began with about ten days of the worst stomach cramps I have ever had. I went to the hospital twice thinking it may be appendicitis.

    But I have had no stomach symptoms since.

    Ten years later when I got the bioscreen test the doc said to take antibiotics one week on/three weeks off with acidophilus probiotics and that would need to be repeated for about 6-12 months to see improvement.

    Do you think this would have worked?
  5. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    The papers I posted today say that these bugs are almost totally resistant to normal antibiotics and 7 days exposure will make their resistance levels worse .... I have one specifically on that subject somewhere .... So the antibiotics become ineffective and just start killing off good bugs ....

    I physically put these bugs in my bowel .... And like you, the same thing happened to me ....

    And if you look back at a post I made, it says that most people will have an initial flare up and then will settle down somewhat when the immune system kicks in ....

    My 3 biggest dramas are reflux, bloating and severe flatulance ....
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
  6. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes:
    2,025
    NZ
    thankyou for putting some of your information up @Elph68 :)
    You can get this bacteria test done from NZ.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
  7. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    I believe so, As long as it gets to them within 48 hours it can come from anywhere .....,

    And contrary to what has been said, I have no affiliation to them, and I only used them to test what I had researched ....
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    634
    Likes:
    111
    When you first put them in your bowel, did you get stomach pain?

    How soon into starting your abx did you feel an improvement?

    Which ones are the known pathogens? I was never told this before.

    Thanks
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  9. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,752
    Likes:
    2,025
    NZ
    48hrs rules me out of their testing.lol.oh well.
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,017
    Likes:
    3,370
    Cornwall, UK
    'Gut dysbiosis' means a pathological imbalance of gut flora, and is very common in ME, as a number of threads show. It can have a range of causes, as can leaky gut. Many of us have corrected the imbalance using various methods, including natural or pharmaceutical antibiotics, diet and supplements.

    I'm afraid I don't have time to read all the papers or test results you have posted. It would be easier if you posted a referenced summary.

    I hope the people whose results you have attached have all given their permission.
  11. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    989
    Likes:
    450
    Here you claim it is not overgrowth but later you post lab results that say it is overgrowth.
    heapsreal likes this.
  12. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    Hi lansbergen,

    It seems this whole concept of the undetectable infection is too difficult for this forum .... You will notice that I have posted a report from the local lab, or from the 'gold standard lab' that clearly states 'no streptococcus or enterococcus isolated' .... Yet they were both taken within a few days of each other .

    Basically, a normal lab that cultures can't detect it .... The Bioscreen test is done by a laser mass spectrometer and detects everything .....
  13. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    989
    Likes:
    450
    The Bioscreen tests say overgrowth. It is even written in red.
  14. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    That is correct overgrowth = infection

    These are levels lower than can be detected in regular labs .... my whole point ....
  15. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    989
    Likes:
    450
    Overgrowth is dysbiosis
  16. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155

    It is more than an imbalance or a dysbiosis MeSi & lansbergen it is how these bugs interact with the colon wall, the mucous membranes and their interaction with the immune system ..... my whole point .....

    But it seems the whole thread has just been a waste of my time .... thread finished!!
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  17. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    As a final word, this is Bioscreen's recommendation for Streptococcal and enterococcal overgrowth:

    This is not advice, but for information only ....

    Bioscreen has shown that dysbiosis commonly occurs in chronic fatigue syndrome and autism patients. Mainly low e-coli and high streptococcus or enterococcus.

    Low e-coli causes fatigue, pain, mood changes and constipation
    High Strep and enterococcus causes constipation, brain fog/poor concentration, poor sleep, slurred speech, food sensitivities/allergies

    Treatment:

    Step1. Antibiotics

    Streptococcus:

    Erythromycin: Adults 250mg twice daily
    Children 125mg twice daily
    week 1 and week 3 x 7 days

    Enterococcus

    Ampicillin enteric coated

    Adults 500mg three times daily
    children 250mg three times daily
    week 1 and week 3 for 7 days

    Step 2 Probiotics

    Saccharomyces boulardii .... Jarrow formulas Saccharomyces boulardii + MOS 1 twice daily
    Jarrow formulas: Jarrow-Dophilus EPS 1 up to 4 times daily between meals if possible

    Step 3 Alkalise:

    Sodium bicarbonate 1sp in warm water 3x daily between meals
    Rationale is to alkalise ileo-caecal area in gut

    Both streptococcus and enterococcus produce d-lactic acid which acidifies this area and increases the risk of muscle pain and fatigue.

    Step 4. Diet

    No sucrose, fructose, glucose or any simple sugars

    Step 5. Pancreatic enzymes

    Medizyme 3 to 4 twice with meals

    Step 6 B Vitamins

    Methylcobalamin and activated B vitamins

    Step 7. Food sensitivities, avoid the following:

    Streptococcus increases lgG antibodies for rice, nuts, corn, wheat, potato, yeast.

    Step 8. Improve gut health.

    Glutamine, fish oils, antioxidants

    Chew xylitol chewing gum ... 2 reasons

    1. Chewing increases epithelial growth factor, which improves growth in gut lining cells.
    2. xylitol is good sugar which inhibits growth of bad bacteria in mouth including streptococci

    This is only for information ......
  18. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    989
    Likes:
    450
    I learned you must culture and test which antibiotic works best on the pathogen(s).
  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    355
    Likes:
    155
    If you can culture them, you don't have an undetectable infection ....

    Cheers.
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,017
    Likes:
    3,370
    Cornwall, UK
    I've been doing a lot of that for 19 months after reading leaky-gut papers, making connections and doing further reading and checking, as I have detailed in the leaky-gut forum. It has helped a lot with multiple symptoms and I have high hopes for continuing improvement. But I use grapefruit seed extract instead of pharmaceutical antibiotics.

    I note that it is claimed that the gut dysbiosis in question causes constipation, but a high proportion of us appear to have diarrhoea. This supports the suspicion that there are subgroups, with different people having different types of dysbiosis, definitions of which can be found here.

    People with diarrhoeal dysbiosis have been found to benefit from gluten-free diets, as is also reported in one or two threads. Many of us here have benefited from this.
    Izola, rosie26 and aimossy like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page