Given the direction that the undetectable infection thread has gone, I thought I had better separate a part of the thread out and discuss the specifics in further depth. I have stated in the undetectable infection that I believe (and provided scientific papers) that can build an argument that the undetectable infection causes a chemical imbalance that results in multiple symptoms throughout the body. I would now like to try and explain, 'The Perfect Storm' which are the conditions that can be found in the female vagina and the male prostate. Through the desktop research I have conducted, personal experience and the personal experience of many people I have talked to, I am without a doubt 100% positive that the undetectable infection is the cause of non-bacterial prostatitis and vaginitis, in most cases when there is no detectable recognized pathogen. Through desktop research and some physical tests of sampling using readily available and common ingredients, I have been able to identify some 'toxins' that gram positive bacteria produce which are known causes of inflammation and can therefore explain the cause of the pain and discomfort that many of us suffer from. Species of Gram Positive bacteria produce: Lipoteichoic acid (LTA) Hydrogen Sulphide Extracellular Protease Hydrogen Peroxide Form biofilms in the presence of simple sugars (glucose, fructose) The interesting point is that gram positive bacteria can form biofilms of different species and the combination of all these toxins can have a disastrous effect. The example that is the most visible is tartar on teeth. These biofilms (tartar/plaque) cause tooth decay and gum disease (inflammation) and we remove them through regular brushing, What I personally can't understand is that if these bacteria form these conditions on teeth then how is it that the medical profession does not recognize that they do the same thing if they can take a hold in the sugar rich environments of the vagina and prostate? The prostate is full of sugar as part of the prostatic fluid, the cervix produces sugar between ovulation and menstruation, this creates a perfect storm for the formation of biofilms and the production of these toxins, resulting in prostatitis or vaginitis. Longer term, the damage caused to cellular DNA from the toxins of these bacteria I believe results in cancer (my opinion). Personally, I think if your doctor tells you to go home and change your soap, wear cotton nickers, have warm baths or see a psychologist, then I would consider finding a different doctor. Most of us act like sheep and get herded around from one specialist to the next with no answers or effective treatment and they use our money to buy their next Porsche ..... Maybe by putting everything on this thread with regards to these conditions we can develop a strong argument to have a part of the undetectable infection recognized as a (possible) treatable medical condition that will bring us one step closer to recognition that the undetectable infection is at the very least a cause for a large subgroup of people with ME/CFS. Non-Bacterial Prostatitis and vaginitis are of bacterial origin and I believe can be cured.