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the subjective feeling of infection/objective symptoms of chronic infection

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by msf, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I've got a heavy cold at the moment, and I was sort of surprised to find that I feel a bit like how I feel when I'm having a bad week - not quite as bad, of course, but the feeling of malaise and the aches are the same.

    It made me think about how the symptoms of ME might differ from the typical symptoms of a chronic infection, if there are such a thing. Obviously all infections have their own symptoms, but perhaps they share some too. I wonder if you could do some kind of statistical symptom analysis like Jason did for the two groups, and see how similar they are?
     
  2. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    They share many
     
  3. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Yes, but surely there is some way of quantifying this a la Jason?
     
  4. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    I learned to reconize the specifics but I can not discripe it well.
     
  5. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I don't mean one of us does it, but rather a ME researcher.
     
  6. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    They need the patients information for it.
     
  7. SOC

    SOC

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    I believe you are talking about something called sickness behavior which is thought to be cytokine-induced. There may very well be a way to sort typical sickness behavior from other ME symptoms, since sickness behavior has been fairly well studied.
     
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  8. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Yes, that is the term for it, but I was wondering whether anyone has tried to quantify it either in ME or in chronic infection.
     
  9. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I imagine most of the studies have been done on the acute stage.
     
  10. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    I think the flares are acute state.
     
  11. SOC

    SOC

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    Might be tricky to quantify something as subjective as aches and malaise. ;)

    I remember there was a researcher who studies sickness behavior from the University of Illinois who was at an ME/CFS conference a while back.... I don't remember that much came from it. Probably other areas of research in ME/CFS are considered to have higher priority. We all know we suffer from sickness behavior (there's another symptom name I dislike). The question probably is whether that's the result of on-going infection or a malfunctioning immune system in the absence of on-going infection.
     
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  12. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Yeah, I was thinking about whether the symptoms could tell us which one it resembles, by using something like Jasons case definition of ME and similar case definitions of chronic infection and autoimmune disease.
     
  13. SOC

    SOC

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    Which what it resembles? Infection?
     
  14. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Which of the two processes you mentioned, that is, chronic infection or auto-immunity.
     
  15. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I think there is a difference between ME symptoms and chronic infection symptoms, and I say this as someone that believes ME is caused by a chronic infection. I think it's all about where the infection is that causes the debility in ME. Look at people with hepatitis C and pre-AIDS HIV. They obviously have a chronic infection, with massive viral loads in the blood, yet they don't have symptoms of ME.
     
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  16. SOC

    SOC

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    Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

    Unfortunately, I don't think it's as easy as comparing symptoms. If it were, experienced clinicians like Peterson or Klimas, who have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of patients would be confident about which it is, and as far as I know, they aren't.

    Clearly, there's something unique about ME/CFS -- PEM. That isn't the result of sickness behavior, any known chronic infection, or known autoimmune condition.
    I suspect you're right.
     

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