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The Stanford Paradox: Elevated Energy Production Found in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by AndyPR, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    Article on a study which was discussed on the forums here - http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...n-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-patients.47443/

    https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...duction-found-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/
     
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  2. Aroa

    Aroa

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    At the end of this article Cort said :

    "...Naviaux’s follow up to his striking ME/CFS metabolomics study should be done this year (and published next).."

    Does it mean that they may now prioritize Ron´s studies ?
     
  3. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    If this is the study I think it is, they grew the mitochondria in an amino acid-rich medium; that is, they removed it from the environment of CFS plasma and popped it into an environment that was rich with resources the mitochondria needed: to wit, amino acids, which have been shown to be favored by cellular respiration in ME/CFS patients (proteins and fats over carbohydrates).

    What this implies to me is that the mitochondria may have made fundamental shifts in order to do their jobs in the environment of ME/CFS patient plasma. It does not (necessarily) follow that this greater energy output occurs within the body of the patient at all, where fewer resources may be available.

    J
     
  4. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    I can't say i fully understand this (and my information comprehension is at maybe 50% right now) but it may be that they are reading a compensatory mechanism lower the main source raised by a compensatory source, and end up with less total but more then expected from an alternate source.
    Assuming OMF knows about this study i suspect they will figure it out

    For that Parkinsons study they don't explain in much detail, and they seem to not be interested in alpha synuclein which has been shown to be very involved in Parkinsons.
     
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  5. lilpink

    lilpink Senior Member

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    I'd be curious to know what that means for someone who can no longer eat vegetables and has to survive mainly on carbs and some animal protein.


    Edit: I appreciate what we eat and cell milieu isn't the same per se.
     
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  6. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Jamie. Is there any consensus as to whether PWME should be increasing their protein/AA intake or is it too soon to say as it may not be as simple as that?
     
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  7. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Too soon to say it's as simple as that, I think, @Daisymay -- I definitely feel best when I eat more protein and healthy fats, and fewer carbs. I can even say pretty confidently that too many carbs / sugar make my symptoms much worse, and there was a time I could not tolerate them at all. This doesn't seem directly connected to pathogenic bloom, either.

    But this is an individual response!
     
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  8. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I'm exactly the same: more protein, more veg, less carbs. Sugar/carbs make my symptoms much worse. But one thing I have found out is that AFTER I have overdone things mentally (concentrated too long/too much), a fast-absorption sugar (like pure dextrose tablets) make me feel a bit better. I have experimented a bit with this, i.e. tried to take the dextrose BEFORE concentrating to see if that would lengthen my concentration span, but it doesn't do anything, and might even make me feel a bit worse. I am curious as to what the mechanism would be behind this... (Sorry if this is off topic.)
     
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  9. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Same @Effi. Once in a great while, I need sugar desperately. Not sure what's behind it.
     
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  10. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    Yeah - It's probably a weak analogy, but, as I was reading Cort's article, the metaphor that came to mind for cells in serum was of a car in which both the gas and and brake were being applied at the same time. The engine is revving high (as the cells try to compensate for "starvation"), but it is going nowhere. Take the cells out of the serum and you remove the brake - and the car runs off way too fast.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  11. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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  12. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    I'm the same. I too feel better eating more protein, well meat actually which wasn't that easy for a vegetarian of some years but I do feel I really need it.
     
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  13. BruceInOz

    BruceInOz Senior Member

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    The part of the study that found increased cristae in the mitochondria does seem to saying that "the mitochondria may have made fundamental shifts in order to do their jobs in the environment of ME/CFS patient plasma". I.e., something in the serum prevents the utilisation or production of ATP so the mitochondria get the signal they need to increase production so increase the cristae density. Then when out of the serum they produce more ATP.

    Will be very interesting if Wang gets to compare in and out of the serum as she said she would like to.
     
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  14. Murph

    Murph :)

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    Some good news from the piece here:
    --

    > When I asked, though, which diseases from a mitochondrial standpoint ME/CFS is most similar to, Dr. Wang mentioned cancer. Since we know that the PBMCs Dr. Wang was studying do not come from cancer patients, it appears that we and the medical world are probably in for some surprises: something different is causing these cells to act the way they are.


    "Cancer patients have increased glycolysis rates and disruption of their mitochondrial metabolism – it is called Warburg theory. It believes that mitochondria do not function well to produce enough ATP in patients’ cells and as a compensation to meet the high ATP demand glycolysis is upregulated," Wang said.
    --

    The overlap with cancer is a real piece of good fortune. This means we have a giant workforce of people with potentially relevant expertise who could flood into the field if it got funding and/or if a single major study showed a way their metabolism research might hold the key to ME/CFS.

    Even absent such a funding influx, progress in cancer research and drug development (one of the best funded diseases in the world) is likely to yield clues and maybe even approved treatments that can be repurposed.
     
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  15. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    That's exactly how it was for me at my severe onset. The first 2-3 years I was stuck in this position. I hope I never experience the this full-blown level again. Unbearable stuff..
     
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  16. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    Just putting down a marker to follow this thread
     
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  17. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    Screen Shot 2017-04-19 at 09.49.01.png

    There is always the "Watch Thread" button that will do the same thing. It's just above the original post in each thread and above the first post on every subsequent page in a thread.
     
  18. lilpink

    lilpink Senior Member

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    It is very individual. I'm the opposite as regards carbs and always have been.
     
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  19. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    Why paradox? We have at least 2 types of ME patiënts: 1. overactive ANS, 2. underactive ANS.
     
  20. anni66

    anni66 mum to ME daughter

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    Sarah Myhill identified 2 distinct groups - this related to how energy was produced- one group was problems with pyruvate ( glycolysis) . It was in her last joint paper.
     
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