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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xara,

    GOOD POST.

    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.
    Taking lots of folates when having a B12 deficiency is NOT good.

    Say that again and again. That can cause neurological damage, especially Subacute Combined Degeneration in the brain and cord.
    Xara likes this.
  2. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Thanks Xara and Fred for you fast and helpful responses. I understand your point Xara about serum vs. cellular, I was only trying to say that after stopping the sublinguals the serum amount at least did not decline again from taking only the B-right, meaning at least I was absorbing it from the stomach -- which was the concern b/c my levels were somewhere around 100. But sure, the serum number really doesn't tell us if it's being used properly - I would guess a high serum number with low intake might in fact actually indicate that it wasn't. I was asymptomatic even with almost no B12, so maybe that shows that not much is getting in the tissues anyway. I guess that might be one reason why I don't seem to tolerate folates very well. If anyone knows why tissue absorption might not be happening, other than the obvious one of not enough b12 to cause a saturation, feel free to share. : D

    Fred, if I understand what you're saying, you would recommend getting the Enzymatic Therapy mb12, starting with that, adding methylfolate as needed, and then adding microdoses of carnitine fumarate. It sounds like what I've been trying to do minus the carnitine, but maybe the Enz. b12 will make more of a difference and enable me to tolerate methylfolate better. You didn't say, but I assume I also should stop the B-Right and use another B-complex without folates, or wrong folates.

    You ask what's intolerable about "startup," and I can't honestly say I've gotten enough results to even have startup, aside from what just seemed to happen from the Metafolin. Before this, anything more than 2mg of mb12 caused pretty scary heartbeat irregularities/palpitations, higher doses of AB12 caused anxiety/panic/worsened insomnia, and any dose of any kind of folate causes bad depression. I'm over the AB12 effects, but the folate effects are there at any dose. And now it looks like a big risk to take carnitine with Hashimoto's and hypothyroid symptoms. I think I get what you're saying that if that's the correct thing to do and the correct form, in the long run upregulating methylation might have a beneficial effect on hypothyroidism, but with every reference I can find saying the opposite, it's a little unnerving to consider taking it. Definitely don't want to make that worse. I guess for now I'll just have to hope that the Enzymatic Therapy B12 works, I'm able to tolerate small doses of methylfolate, and the two of those are enough to get things rolling, and worry about the carnitine later. Or would I likely just be spinning my wheels and not getting anywhere without the CF?

    One other question: where does TMG fit into all of this? With blood levels of b12 and folate high, my doc actually recommended TMG as possibly a limiting factor that could be reducing methylation from not having enough.

    Thanks again, think it's pretty clear that something at least is going on with ATP production and methylation, it's just a matter now of being able to tolerate any of these supplements enough to hopefully correct it. Wondering if in this case one of the methylation tests would shed some light on the situation, either the functional one or one of the genetic tests?
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jeffrez,

    I may not have time to finish this post today before I get picked up but I'm make a try. I would anticipate that An Enzy MeCbl will satisfy all but possibly CNS needsfor MeCbl, that 1 mg or two of AdoCbl each day under the lip will help. Hashimoto's that is still in the active phases is the ONLY hypothyroid that I have heard of changing with active b12s and in those people the thyroid returned to more or less normal. On the l-methylfolate, it can start a donut hole insufficiency, can be miserable, by appearing to start more healing than it can maintain so a rapid titration, 800 to 4000mcg dose at a time is far more pleasant and less torturous as it relieves the symptoms rapidly. Then potassium need usually increases to sustain the healing as well. That might go through severl rounds of adjustment. It may take a larger dose of l-methylfolate to STOP the insufficiency symptoms than one would take on a contant basis. So one might have to take 4000mcg to stop the insufficiency and then may find that 800mcg 4 times a day works far better at maintaining it that way.

    For me palpitations were low potassium and b-complex once a day. I had to fix both to get the palpitations to go away. Even today if I skip my morning vitamins, heart palpitations by dinner. I have to have b-complex twice a day, and it isn't the folate or b12 becasue I get a b-complex that doesn't have that and build with active forms from there.

    The carnitine fumarate may restrict you severely from positive effects. That comes after everything else is pretty well balanced out and running smoothly so you can focus on the micrototration of the LC.

    I think the tests of the sort suggested won't produce the results you want. Much of the b12 research says it the way it is. The only definitive way to tell if it will work for you is a suitable trial. It can take a lot of work to find out things like the difference b-complex makes at once a day versus twice a day, for some people.
    jeffrez likes this.
  4. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Thank you, Fred! Lots to work with there, very much appreciate it.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jeffrez,

    As regards the anxiety, panic of AdoCbl startup, I would suggest a microtaper there too, just a crumb at a time. Get enough MeCbl in you and just start with a tiny crumb of AdoCbl. It will have all the effect it will typically have within an hour or two. A person can generally take several crumbs a day, just to the point of barely feeling that energized feeling that so easily becomes anxiety-panic. The only way I know of is to just take it barely to the edge over and over, and the body gets used to it and the edge moves back. The feeling of change happens as long as the mithochondria are not fully occupied with AdoCbl. That can happen terribly slowly or very quickly. Also. if mito formation has been supressed, perhaps a contributer to exercise intolerance, mito formation takes off and arobic capacity can increase very rapidly.
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    There are a couple of other studies that support acetly-L-carnitine or L-carnitine blocks T3 & T4 entering into the nuclei and preventing binding at the nuclear hormone receptor sites in cells throughout the body both periphery and CNS (ALCAR only). The blockade to my understanding is NOT in the thyroid per se but the entire body (only ALCAR though gets into the CNS). Not aware of any with LCF but then again it will disassociate at some point in the body, correct? Tartrate is a terrible idea anyways as it disrupts the malate shuttle big time.

    That being said I think we are talking dosing and other variables to explain different people reactions to these supplements. 2-4 grams are large doses. Then again the benefits of the carnitine on the mitochondria may increase production of natural T3 for healthy individuals enough that some down regulation is warranted.

    Just because something is an inhibitor doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. Case in point cortisol affects metabolism of T3 (i.e. degrades it). Does this mean cortisol is bad? Should a hypothyroid patient automatically eschew adrenal treatment when otherwise warranted? I would submit that would be a terrible idea. It is not uncommon for the body to use one things to stimulate on part of a process and then downregulate the other part.

    Trust me T3 is very important but I still think ATP trumps all ... well except oxygen and water :)
    jeffrez likes this.
  7. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    That's basically what I've done, and it's worked well. What I can't get around are the metafolin effects, especially the depression that kicks in at any dose. My heart rate goes way down, too. Don't know how I'm going to get around that.

    Why do you think the 400mcg Quatrefolic/folate from the B-Right is no problem? Is the folate there possibly blocking any Quatrefolic activity, for a net gain of zero? Or would a pure Quatrefolic product maybe work, like the Nutricology "QuatreActiv?" Do you know if anyone has tried anything like that (or have you)?
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yeah 75 mcg is on the low side. I used to be 100 mcg. I do better now on 75 mcg but moving more into a slot in the morning without food to increase absorption (long story). Yes I am 6' 2" but only 155 lbs which is big issue for me considering I eat 4000 calories a day. This catabolism started years before any treatment. My SHBG is actually low normal. I suspect the catabolism and my supraphysiological glucocorticoid levels (to treat me rare autoimmune disease which is the reason my adrenal shut down and my RT3 hit almost 800) are now major contributors to a variety of symptoms including metabolism of T3 but that is another saga of its own.

    Btw can I ask when you were on T3 did you multi dose or take all in the morning? Also how much HC and florinef were you on back in the day (I take 4 mg medrol and 10 mg prednisone + 0.1 mg florinef).

    Please not I have been on methylation support for 2.5 years. More recent improvements have occurrred since the summer 2012 going on adb12. But I have been pounding 5 star mb12 and FolaPro for more than 2 years. The only forms of B12s I take are the active forms and for 2 years now my B12 serum levels are above the detectable range. So I have not been B12 deficient for a long time. Now the deadlock quartet is a different story as I learned with adb12.

    Finally could you tell me what levels of the deadlock quartet got you off your meds? Also do you believe it was B12 deficiency alone that got you into the mess or did you heal / overcome some other problem, i.e. chronic infection, autoimmune disease, etc.? Just curious.
  9. Linda828

    Linda828

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    What form of Carnitine is in meat? Does it also have inhibitory effects on the thyroid? I understand that, like B12 , it may not be in high enough concentrations in food to reverse damage done, or like food folate, it might not be in a form that some people can utilize well. Still, I wonder how significant a factor it can be in healing for those who have trouble with the supplemental forms.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I also had a big crash from methylfolate. It was actually right after another crash from working out too hard at the gym. When I made a recovery a few years ago I think the biggest thing that helped was getting a lot of sleep (10-11 hours) and limiting activities and sources of stress during the day. Limiting activities for me meant spending much of the day in bed. Since I had very limited social interactions during the day limiting sources of stress meant I stopped watching TV and movies, following politics, and reading fiction novels for a period of time. I was also eating healthy and taking lots of supplements, but I think sleep at night and rest during the day were the biggest things. I'd recommend most of the supplements in Freddd's protocol (except D Ribose which is overpriced IMO). Just stay away from the methyl donors for now. Aside from B12 and folate, that would be TMG, SAMe, and choline (I might be forgetting a few). Maybe B12 and choline would be ok.
  11. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Are you my twin? Lol. I do pretty much the same thing during severe crashes. Even with this one I'm going to have to take more downtime before I'm hopefully back on my feet. I had to check in here for this one to try to get a handle on what's going on, but I hope now this can start reversing with more rest, and then basically start at square one again with the Enzymatic Therapy.

    I do take d-ribose during crashes like these, though, and find it does help at least get through the day. I want to think it perhaps helps the mitochondria recover faster, but that's mainly just a hope, actually. But it does seem to help the muscle fatigue temporarily a small but noticeable amount. I'll take any help I can get, as long as it doesn't make me worse. ;-)
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I wish one of many doctors had told me about that. It took me 13 years before I found out about that through research on the internet. Supplements and eating healthy are great, but sometimes the body just needs rest.

    I actually was taking ribose during my last recovery, but I was taking so many things that I don't know how much it helped. I might try it again later if I can cut back on my other supplements.

    You mentioned inflammation. Have you tried astaxanthin? That's supposed to be good for inflammation and mitochondria. Also, lecithin is good for healing mitochondria. Both Rich and Freddd have it in their protocols.

    I'm not sure what's specifically going on in your case, but I posted some stuff Rich said about the possible adverse reactions from methylation.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hylation-and-healing.21725/page-4#post-333085
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear that about the T3.

    My weight loss, need for DHEA, need for high gluco and mineral corticoids, etc. all predate by years any thyroid treatment. My adrenals practically shutdown well before any treatment or medications. Though I don't doubt T3 medication contributes to difficulties in weight gain, I lost 80 lbs in weight in eight months from 2008-2009, three years before any Cytomel.

    In my case T4 and Armour were disasters since due to my raging autoimmune disease at the time, my reverse T3 went absolutely ballistic (high 700s on a range of 40-270 test). I to struggle though with appropriate levels of free and total T3 on Cytomel but I remind myself those are plasma levels. Some of clinical symptoms are undeniable.

    With improvements in methylation and after 2 years of eating zero gluten, dairy and full paleolithic diet plus some other modifications my autoimmune antibodies have dropped in half and I have been able to reduce my glucocorticoids by 25%. I am still 2x physiological but I hope with time if I can balance other things correctly to be able to eventually lower that to near physiological levels. Right now I am hoping the T3 only is a transitory thing and that eventually my body will allow me roll back on that some as well. At present though it is proving to be pretty essential to me.
  14. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    W H A T? I've barely looked into the Krebs cycle thinking our problems primarily involved methylation. While using the active protocol does improvement occur with this issue as well, sort of a bonus to increased methylation, or is this something that requires a whole other set of treatments?

    Just catching up on this long thread, apologies if question already addressed.
  15. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Thanks, Lotus, that's a good post. Is that directly from Rich, or is it your own summary?

    I tried astaxanthin once a couple of years ago and had one of the worst reactions I ever had to a supplement. It caused a massive immune system flare or upset a redox balance, perhaps. Another bad reaction I had once was from green tea, and they both affect xanthine oxidase, so there's a problem I'm guessing from the mercury poisoning. I do take lecithin, though, and eat a lot of egg yolks, so thanks for the recommendation. :- )
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Yeah, it's from Rich. It's actually a combination of 2 or 3 of his posts which I pieced together. I've been taking Zyflamend PM for inflammation, but now I'm finding out some of the ingredients lower cortisol which my be a bad idea. I have like 4 bottles because it was on sale so I bought a bunch. It seems like every problem a supplement solves it potentially can create a new problem:confused:
    jeffrez likes this.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    A lot of the supplements in Freddd's protocol help with the Krebs Cycle by improving mitochondrial function and increasing ATP, but I would like to know if there's more to the Krebs Cycle than just that.
  18. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The Krebs cycle and methylation cycle are interconnected and affect each other. Methylation is fundamental process of the body that at its core affects gene transcriptional regulation for production of expressed protein products, in other words among its many other hats it literally interacts with the machinery that encodes mRNA from your DNA.

    But the Krebs cycle is about energy generation. Along with oxygen and water, energy is essential to life. Period. In fact the whole objective of oxygen is to help you make energy in the Krebs cycle (not exactly true but close enough). So the Krebs cycle interacts with EVERY system in the body. So yeah the Krebs cycle pretty much trumps all biologically speaking. I think Freddd's protocol addresses this co-dependence of methylation and Krebs cycle function with his deadlock quartet (+ things like other B vitamins, alpha lipoic acid, CoQ10, etc.).

    But there are a lot of reasons that the Krebs cycle may be blocked and it is hard to say if there is a one size fits all solution for all of them. The biochemistry regulation is pretty complicated. On the other hand what I like about Freddd's reasoning is blindly throwing Krebs boosters at the problem is not going to do much.

    I also think inflammation needs to be addressed as well otherwise the immune system can basically block everything including hormones and neurotransmitter production. This is a bit tricky since methylation can both reduce inflammation and increase it. I think the Adb12 plays a critical role in lowering inflammation based on the Gorilla in the Room paper in another thread.
    Lou likes this.
  19. pela

    pela

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    Hi dbkita

    Interesting that I am also on the skinny side, 5'8" 120 pounds and lost weight slowly and steadily for years desptite eating all day. I stopped counting calories when I went gluten free/ Paleo-ish, but 2500-3000 is probably close. Only recently did I hear that inability to gain weight is a B12 deficiency symptom. And since switching from T3 to NTH I've gained a couple of pounds.

    The hydrocortisone is a long story--I ended up at around 45 mg for several months. 0.1 mg florinef sounds right. A nurse practioner began giving me Myers Cocktails with hydroxyB12. It got me off HC and FC almost immediately, but it took me almost 2 years to figure out it was the b12 that was working for me. I was already off HC and FC when I began Freddd's protocol in May 2012. I was 5 months into MB12, ADB12 and folate when I began the switch off T3. I had last tried NTH 2 years ago and within 5 days knew it was a big mistake. I felt horrible for seven weeks after taking 5 grains of Naturethroid. This time, Naturethroid made me feel great. I'm currently at 3.5 grains of Greater Pharma Thiroyd.

    When I was taking T3 only, I took it in four doses throughout the day. Since I eat so much, only the first dose was on an empty stomach. I took the final 25 mcg dose at bedtime.

    I started Freddd's protocol when Jarrow had gone bad, but no one knew it yet. I was taking 5000 mcg Jarrow Mb12, one Enzy, 1/3 Source Naturals ADB12. I can't remember my starting dose of methylfolate. I slowly increased all of the above and now take 6 Enzys, one Anabol ADB12, a lesser brand of MB12 at around 15 mg, 9 mg folate daily, and take one Doctor's Best l-carnitine fumerate about twice a week. I also take 400 mcg organic selenium daily. Selenium is essential for converting T4 to T3. I live in a selenium deficient region in addition to having malabsorption issues.

    Yes I believe it was B12 deficiency that got me into this mess. I suspect many (but not all) who are diagnosed with adrenal fatigue have B12 deficiency. In my case B12, even hydroxy, "cured" my adrenal fatigue. Now I'm working on curing everything else.
    Lou likes this.
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Thanks for the info. How much methylfolate do you take now? Also how many doses do you split your b12s and methylfolate up into?

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