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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    You are most welcome. I tossed that in there since 99% of the posters get that distinction wrong and think folates in vegetables are either folinic or folic acid. Similar in some ways but different in other key ways. I still wonder if the health of ones intestinal lumen has something to do with how vegetable folates factor into various problems. I only say this since I have Celiac's so my intestines are not in good shape since it took me 40 years to determine the Celiac's. Uggh.

    Charlie horses are almost universally an potassium electrolyte problem. B12 will not by itself drive the potassium need. I know this from personal experience. It is the combination of methylfolate and meb12 and of course addtional methylation support only drives the need harder. Supposedly these are startup symptoms but I stop calling something startup after several months.

    Low potassium in the intracellular space will cause muscles to ache. But not quite sure what you mean about down in the bones. I will say that muscle pain down in the feet and lower legs is ALWAYS a sign of low potassium for me and my brother. It is my main clinical barometer of my potassium status. Then again not that I think of it the feet have so many bones in them and so many muscles that it does kind of feel like bone ache when it gets bad. But you are getting this with methyl b12 alone? Curious.
     
  2. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I do not and did not mean to insult (people following the protocol of) Rich, Yasko or Nathan, patients should decide for themselves who's/what's best for them. I am glad Yasko and Nathan use methylation on their patients and I do hope all get well. Hopefully Yasko, Nathan et al. will find a protocol that works for every patient. Until then I'd like to read about different protocols too. Until then I am glad there is a choice.

    I'm sorry I can't say it more clearly:
    "If it was regular medical science we would not be here trying all sorts of things, we would be following up on doctors orders."

    AFAIK all protocols and opinions here are not common practice, it's not part of official guidelines, I am not aware of an impressive number of publications in medical journals that matter nor have I seen meta studies with data gathered worldwide.
    But before I find myself sucked into a less interesting 'yes but' - 'no but' discussion: I may have missed things (I am not reading the Lancet on a regular basis :) ), but from the things I did see I got the impression all protocols are still under development with regular adjustments.

    Though Rich, Yasko and Nathan are famous here on this forum, and they may even be famous in the US (I am not familiar with the medical situation in your country) they are definitely not famous in my country. I don't consider my country a less developed country.

    Freddd's offering people a choice. Nobody is obliged to read his postings, nobody is obliged to take the supplements he's suggesting.
    If you don't like what he is saying, or how he's saying it, don't read it. But please (not talking to anyone in particular here) do not patronize me; all who are capable of understanding what he is saying + suggesting are sure capable of forming an opinion about him and the implications of his protocol. Thus I don't think explicite warnings are necessary.

    Thank you.
     
    helen1, Lala and Red04 like this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I recall you saying that he helped you triple your glutathione levels when even methylation wasn't enough
    Try to make sure the Krebs cycle is not blocked. Mine was in lock down at the AKG stage with really high AKG intra-converting to glutamate and back. Meanwhile with insufficient ATP, I could not make glutathione. RIch Vank (bless his soul) identified that while I had one of the lowest glutathione levels he has ever seen, the methylation cycle was at best a minor player in that. He suggested working on the Krebs cycle and high dose vitamin C a la Dr Robert Cathcart and bam my glutathione tripled in six months.
     
  4. Idie

    Idie

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    Wow, I am surprised at the negativity toward Fredd's posts. Four years ago, I was miserable and in pretty rough shape. My decline started 10 years previous and was a slow process until I just fell off the cliff. After multiple doctor visits and no answer, I began Fredd's protocol---it turned things around within 3 months (I wasn't perfect but I knew I was improving). I had start up and it was tough but I stuck it out and sure enough things improved. I've asked myself several times if I had it to do over again would I have started slower and titrated up so I wouldn't have had start-up as bad. I still think I would have done it the same way but I know others who titrated and did fine too.
    It was my decision to do the protocol and I am glad I did. Fredd helped me immensely and I continue to follow on these boards because I do think this is where things get teased apart. I know for a fact that Fredd valued Rich's perspectives as he told me that many times on private email exchanges and I also know that the debate between Fredd and Rich was valuable to both of them and to us.
    I am most appreciative of the help I have gotten and I am on Fredd's protocol still. Please keep the dialogue open----there is much to learn.
     
    traray, helen1, ahmo and 2 others like this.
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I think we all appreciate Freddd’s dedication to this study and his many knowledgeable posts. Dialogue is the life of this forum.

    This post is not a commentary on what protocol is "better" or about anyone being right or wrong, but about what works and doesn't work on a forum. A disclaimer in Freddd’s signature line seems like it could protect both Freddd and the forum and clarify that Freddd is posting hypotheses that he has looked into in depth, but that they are his opinions and that any protocols he offers are experimental.

    Since giving medical advice is both against forum rules and illegal, Freddd and the forum both need to be protected. Maybe some members with legal expertise could comment?

    Sushi
     
    helen1, Adster, brenda and 1 other person like this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad idea, but I find myself rarely reading people's signatures. I know that might seem hypocritical since I have a signature, but it's really just an unconscious act.
     
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    To clarify.

    My glutathione was very low in Spring 2011 (I may have misspoke before and said 2010, it was definitely 2011). I knew this based on Genova Diagnostics NutraEval test in Dec 20101. Another doctor was putting me on IVs. I consulted Rich right around that time and told me that though I had a partial methylation block my glutathione levels were so low they could not be due primarily to methylation problems. He said this based on analyzing my NutraEval and other lab data which was wonderful. He suggested that I had a block at the GCL enzyme and suggested high dose vitamin C a la Dr Robert Cathcart. He also felt the IV glutathiones may be helpful. In summary the IV glutathione were a disaster. The methylation protocol did not seem to affect my glutathione levels much and I had already been on a form of it before I talked to Rich for a few months.

    My glutathione levels went up only when I added in the Krebs cycle support. I cannot tell how much impact the vitamin C had but in hindsight I was already on fairly high doses before this whole episode having started in summer 2010 with 4 grams per day of ascorbic acid. Increasing to bowel tolerance at 8 grams or so a day might have had some effect but I doubt it was the main reason.

    So what I said before was all accurate I just left out the bad experience with the glutathione IVs. Again I would caution people who take glutathione injections that if they get really bad excitotoxicity don't necessarily buy the detox line from the doctor. I went through "detox" and it actually put me in the hospital (long story). In my case the ATP blockade prevented the function of the glutamate-cysteine-ligase. I am thankful to Rich Vank for pointing out that hypothesis but his suggestion was the Cathcart vitamin C dosing and thinking that the injections may be helpful. Again all these private communications were in Spring 2011. We never got a chance to reconnect before his sudden passing about the role of removing the ATP blockade.

    Personally I think the Krebs cycle trumps pretty much everything else. If you don't have enough ATP to go around, various systems just simply do not work. Methylation overlaps with this, but so do many other systems. All can lead to the same place: a dysfunctional Krebs cycle, neurotransmitter imbalance, and immune system dysregulation.

    Speaking of which I should get my glutathione levels checked. Anyone know a cheap RBC test for glutathione? I can't afford another NutraEval or equivalent test atm.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Regardless of people's stances on Freddd's protocol could we just get back to the main issue at hand and see more of what he is putting together? While I don't agree with everything he says, I am very intrigued with what he is trying to do here by putting everything he considers important in one place. I have learned several valuable tips from him that I would not have gotten from any other source. So I would relish the opportunity to hear more about his 'GUT" theory. If there are things you don't like about how he delivers his message then just please tune it out. We are all adults here. Let the man get his message out. Last thing I want to see happen is he decides it is not worth it to continue. At least that is my two cents.
     
    traray, helen1, cph13 and 5 others like this.
  9. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    My use of the phrase "blatantly misleading" in an earlier post was too harsh, I apologise, I should have said 'confusing'. I hope Freddd can forgive any negativity and see that these comments are as intended constructive criticism for the sake of the forum overall and the people that he helps.
     
  10. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I need one of those periods of clear thought --not my brain fog that's returned in trumps-- to satisfactorily answer your questions, but I'll try.

    First question, no, I guess I thought eventually my high supplemental intake of potassium (from a depleted baseline) would equilize to the extent of healing for neurological damage and regained muscle. Secondly, yes, I had exceptional improvement in symptoms. But, no, they did not remain. By restart, I simply meant reattaining those fleeting (hopefully becoming the new normal) periods of clear thought, and also reclaiming the muscle growth experienced soon after starting Fred's protocol.

    And I think the exchange between you and Fred regarding the problem of folates in certain foods may have finally made me see what should have been my obvious gorilla in the room, that instead of remaining on the same doses that got things kicked off perhaps I need much more methyl folate supplements to activate b12.

    Thanks, dbkita, for all your insightful contributions.
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    No one in this thread has told Freddd to stop talking. Even if they did, I doubt he'd listen to them. And anyone who's been following these forums for any length of time knows Freddd has no problem getting his message out or being heard.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita,

    Could you explain how the third branch (" IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)" leads to Paradoxical Folate problems?

    I am adding this to this short post for easy of replying to another pieve of your long post.

    There are a group of people who have no or very little "startup" with MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate or L-carnitine. Further, SAM-e, D-ribose, TMG don't kick off an intial startup, D, A, E, C, magnesium and zinc and probably others, can kick off the startup or kick aff a new round of startup as experienced by me or any of many others here and elsewhere reporting that. Zinc for instance gave me the largest startup after more than a year than anything on this part of the list. It happened after I had started AdoCbl and l-carnitine. I increased my zinc from 15mg to 65mg a day. It was a very powerful startup and I dropped back and titrated up to that point. Zinc turned out to be a severely limiting factor for me, and a percentage of others when they tried it. In Carmen Wheatley's paper LARGE GORILLA... ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN, she details exactly where zinc comes into play with AdoCbl in reducing inflammation. I had trialed that zinc earlier and it had done nothing. The role for zinc wasn't limited until I had added the AdoCbl and l-carnitine. Combinations and balance between the components is needed. I found tat I had to try things over and over at differnt stages until I found when they worked and fitted. And given person might need any number of variations and combinations. Order of trial can be inportant. After I got healing started then it was a lot of trials to fins the next missing piece. I targeted them as well as I could with papaer research but that rarely says anything about combinations, order or tming. These are all pragmatic results reported by various people who were systematically going through this. Vit D appears to be the most commonly limiting of the usual vitamins with zinc and magnesium the most limiting of the common mineral supplements.
     
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Hmmm interesting since vitamin D seems to be both a curse and a powerful things for me. Food for thought.
     
  14. LisaGoddard

    LisaGoddard Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd, I take the adenosylb12 everyday. I look forward to reading your post about methylfolate. Thank you so so so much for posting your ideas and experience on methylation. I am so very grateful.
    Kindest regards,
    Lisa
     
    Victronix likes this.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adster,

    I do try to be as clear and non confusing as I can be. It isn't easy (possible?) to provide, in what amounts to first version, a well explained flawless ground up re-conceptualization of something that has gone so far down a wrong pathway as to cause millions of us to be sick with deficiency diseases of unknown numbers of variations all converging back on the same fundamental nutritional deficiencies with the whole thing garrisoned by 60 years of research. I can't even type a page without dozens of typos due to neurological damage from decades of undiagnosable mystery diseases, the same ones it would appear in perhaps a dozen of the variations out of hundreds. There are holes galore. I will use any suitable specific details to fill them in as well as possible. The present version is the result of massive rethinking and extension of the structure. I'm always looking for things that will help fill in the holes.

    Solving this problem isn't something that has happened all at once. It's taken me 34 years to get to here with the most progress in the last 11 years, and the layers keep peeling back.

    In working for HMOs one of the things I did was data mining projects to identfy people that could be helped with the current levels of knowledge. Most of them didn't have a suitable computer system design, so we were starting at a very low bar. So in the late 70s we were making sure pregnant or hoping to be pregnant women were taking their folic acid and CyCbl and vitamin E etc. That was the best we could do at the time. They (management) didn't want to identify the people who's history cried out in need for such, ie women with previous children with neural tube defects, so they were not notified that something could be done other than as part of the group of possible future pregnancies. As the neural tube defects occur at about week 3, prevention is the only way. Pre-natal vitamins starting at month 4 wouldn't do the job. Be in good health.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    The vitamin D thing is very fuzzy, not at all clear cut. I have expressed the opinion that 3000-5000 IU daily from fish liver oil (fully active) is desireable for perhaps 20 years. I have experienced the effects of a month of maximum D from full body sunshine daily. It seems to make a reasonably substantial and noticable difference each time but is hard to pin down.

    One other thing to mention is that for me, before MeCbl nothing made any significant difference. After MeCbl almost everything (vitamins, various nutrients, dairy) makes a difference. Before MeCbl and l-methylfolate milk or no milk made no difference to my digestion. After MeCbl and l-methylfolate ONLY milk products make things terrible.

    I'm continuing looking at your lengthy post and see what else I can perhaps lend some clues. I hope with all this we can both come to better understandings. I would sure like to know how D fits in better. It is one of the group I have been calling "critical cofactors" becasue of the massive difference it can make. The kids developing rickets again becasue of sunblock and no outdoor exercise is scary.
     
  17. Linda828

    Linda828

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    Freddd,

    I’d like to understand some of the underpinnings of your theory more clearly. I asked a very quick question at the beginning of this thread about the lettered diseases. Let me reword what you are saying to see if I have your idea right.

    What confuses me is this idea of “distribution by diffusion.” That seems to be the basis of your approach. You are saying that all the lettered diseases are essentially utilizing enzymes that would not be necessary if we had an adequate amount of the naturally occurring cobalamins. So a paper such as this, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995210/ that goes into minute detail about the processing of cobalamine in the cell is essentially referring to the “Work around method.” Do I have your thought right so far? If so then :

    Is the Transcobalamine II in the blood stream also a “work around method? It would have to be if you assume that the cobalamine can get into the cells by diffusion. Otherwise, the transcobalamine II/cobalamin complex would need to go through the laborious process of breaking the Transcobalamin II protein off of the Cobalamin. That then starts you into the entire chain of enzymes that make up the lettered diseases.

    Can you point to any papers, research, whatever, that details the “distribution by diffusion” mechanisms? My assumption is that in this process no conversion of the methyl or adenosyl cobalamines would be necessary. They somehow diffuse across the cell membrane and immediately become active in their appropriate enzymatic cofactor roles. This has to be true because in Transcobalamin II deficiency the treatment is huge doses of cobalamin, which must work by diffusion into the cells.

    Perhaps a paper like the Carmen Wheatley’s has a section that explains this. I confess, I have not yet put the time into that which understanding of a such foreign area to me would require. That is a project for next week.

    It isn’t absolutely necessary to understand the underpinnings of your thought for the treatment approach to work. Still, it is bothersome to me when I don’t at least have a conceptual idea of what is happening.

    Thanks for any clarity you can bring to this.
    Blessings
    Linda
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Just right now on the NBC news they mentioned that in a study in Norway of folic acid that taking folic acid a month BEFORE pregancy and the first two months of pregnancy, were critical to preventing autism. I suspect that L-methylfolate would be superior. However, women in Norway don't get folic acid in white flour foods so they may not be topped out yet for effectiveness. I would like to read that study.
     
  19. Jorlev

    Jorlev

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    Quick question regarding the above.

    With AdoCbl-MeCbl absorption, are you saying that 100mcg (50mcg AdoCbl / 50mcg MeCbl) would be absorbed from taking 1/4 of 1mg (250mcg) sublingual AdoCbl and 1/4 of 1 mg (250 mcg) of MeCbl? Just trying to clarify.

    Regarding conversion, are you suggesting that equal amounts of MeCbl and AdoCbl should be taken on the off chance that ones body does not convert well between the two or do you still favor taking more of MeCbl than AdoCbl.
    What ratio and amounts do you take? I know you take 25K MeCbl. Would you take 25K AdoCbl too??
    Sounds like a lot.

    Regarding the Wheatly study, I'm not sure if I got the right take away from it. Was it implying that Adeno helps lessen ONOO while preserving the NO needed for vasodilatation? I've read conflicting things on NO. That it's needed for vasodilatation and that lack of it restrict blood flood and therefore nutrients needed for nerve function / repair.
    If MeCbl is a NO scavenger aren't you concern that megadoses are depleting too much NO even if AdoCbl is preserving it. How would one know if they have too much or too little NO? Your thoughts appreciated.
     
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    This is intriguing since for me only once starting the adb12 did a number of vitamins, etc. start having positive effects (namely B1, B5, biotin, alpha lipoic acid). Around the same time I also starting supplementing with calcium pyruvate and in the past calcium had caused odd neurological issues (fasciculations, mild tremors, skin issues) and since the adb12 that does not seem to be the case and if anything the calcium is helping my mood and sleep schedule. Odd. Initially the adb12 used to make me really tired but now it does the reverse (though maybe I still get a bit fuzzed for an hour mentally).

    I suspect the Krebs cycle has been a major block in me for a long time. I need to find the time to introduce some L-carnitine fumarate.
     

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