It slows down the recycling of methylcobalamin, one of the active forms of B12.What does homozygous A66g do?
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It slows down the recycling of methylcobalamin, one of the active forms of B12.What does homozygous A66g do?
hello @Freddd i was wondering if you could help me. I have had cfs/me/fibro for 10 years. I began taking b-12 & folate supplements 2 weeks ago. since then I have had increasingly severe insomnia - waking up in the middle of the night with a above-average heartbeat and an awake mind, but a tired body. do you know why this might be and what i could do to reduce it?
& my second question: i must confess i only found your more detailed instructions today, after already ordering products based on Dr Rich's protocol - and so i have only now learned that some brands are not as good quality as others. i dont have much money so can't really afford to buy another 6months' supply of all-new products - but i am very worried that the ones i bought will not be good enough. i am getting the folate in the form of l-5-methyltetrahydrofolate calcium salt, as included in the life extension two-per-day [tablets]. i am getting methylcobalamin) from NOW [lozenges]. I am getting folinic acid from california gold nutrition [drops]. does this seem adequate to you, or must i start again? I am quite distraut at the prospect of throwing away $100 worth of unopened products.
I note dr rich recommended l-cystine to help with the possible exitoticity that comes from beginning his methylation protocol & which can lead to insomnia. since dr rich is sadly no longer with us, i was wondering if you might have learned more about this issue - and whether this solution might work?
thanks for your time.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response..
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin)..
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness...
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.
@Freddd ps. i just thought about this - i take 1mg melatonin every night. is it possible that suddenly taking way more b12 than before could be somehow leading to excess melatonin & so ruining my sleep phase?
would a potential fix for this be to stop taking melatonin?
@Freddd ps. i just thought about this - i take 1mg melatonin every night. is it possible that suddenly taking way more b12 than before could be somehow leading to excess melatonin & so ruining my sleep phase?
would a potential fix for this be to stop taking melatonin?
@jhlyon you describe my sudden onset of insomnia exactly. Fredd's clusters of symptoms have not applied to me after 2 months of low and slow methylation--1000 mcg cocktail of B12 forms + 200 mcg folate + multi of cofactors.
Fatigue and sleep have improved 50% until I ran out of folate, but I continued Bs for two weeks until I had a strong onset of insomnia--body tired, brain alert--which feels like an earlier episode of glutamate elevation after too much taurine.
Cutting B12 to 500 immediately reduced the insomnia from onset (all night) to maintenance insomnia (2am to 4am on). Will see if possibly too high levels of B12 clear in the week it takes to refill my folate and then I will restart slowly up to my original ratio.
Don't think electrolytes / potassium are my issue as I have been drinking Trace Minerals like mother's milk.
Unless low potassium can present as insomnia with none of the other more typical hypo symptoms?
Can B12 with inadequate folate lead to insomnia or potassium-induced insomnia w/o elevated heart, twitching etc.? On another thread someone talked about balancing the energy of B12 with calming effects of folate...but there are more threads in which people blame folate for insomnia.
@Freddd
a quick question. If a person is b12 difficient both in body and csf, he takes 1mg enzy mb12 sublingually and takes 15mg methylfolate to keep out of insufficiency. The 1mg enzy is enough for body but not for csf. So will this lead to a methyltrap in brain but not in body? Since methylfolate is very much bioavailabe and easily crosses blood brain barrier, there is lot of folate in the brain but too little b12, what problem will this cause?
In other words, is it safe to take high amounts of methylfolate while not taking cns penetration levels of b12?
I hope I can help you change the "reallyconfused". part. It's difficult to say. There are a lot of aspects. I will tell you my experience. When I started 1mg sublingually of ENZY MeCbl it about blew my socks off. It affected a whole lot of things in the cns right from the start. It affected mood and personality and quieted multisensory hallucinations, it affected taste and smell. That change wasn't a leisurely change. It happened suddenly some months in. As a kind of silly disagreement about the definitions of "deficiency" versus "functional deficiency"; that :functional deficiency wasn't a REAL deficiency since it wasn't damage. So when you get a report of hyper MMA or HCY, then you are talking REAL damage. What I found was that there were a whole lot of things that responded to both MeCbl and/or AdoCbl at these normal doses. The large dose came out of Japanese research of 50mg doses with various modes of ingestion and later study with followup of spinal fluid injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl in a group of people with diabetic neuropathies. Many of them improved and stayed improved ass long as the CSF level stayed high. The high dose, I and a number of others who inject MeCbl regularly did a series of trials. We tried 50mg sublingual (at the time 10x5mg jarrow) and found it equivalent to about 7.5 to 10 mg of MeCbl SC injection for the purposes of improving neurological functioning including demyelinated areas improving. So people have lack of AdoCbl with high MMA, some have low MeCbl with high HCY, in the CSF and these cause different damages. Ordinary doses appears to affect functional insufficiencies and the higher doses affect the damages and some neuropathic problems
I will put up the list that distinguishes what the different nutrients affect. It distinguishes the high dose from the normal dose.. The folate appears to have plenty of MeCbl for normal functioning with a normal dose. It may take a year or two for enough healing to see what is left. I already had AdoCbl in the body and taking a once a week 50mg dose. At a week it never goes down far enough to make a noticeable difference. The AdoCbl changes the fats for myelin and is necessary along with methylfolate and MeCbl. If you have drop-foot, lack the ability to feel location, reflexes altered and so on that show up on the part of the list as responding to high dose MeCbl pay attention to those. If they get worse while all the other symptoms are getting better that tells you. If they stay the same, you will know that. If they improve too, that is a possibility. The folate appears to help increase serum half life and concentration of MeCbl. They were speaking of people correcting their blood with folate and NO cobalamins. That is dangerous. It takes very little
Dan,
As I have said, an unknown percentage have trouble with folinic acid. So here we have a number 81%, have effect. That could be close. So let me make the statement more explicitly. As long as a person has sufficient L-methylfolate folinic acid is not necessary for anyone or sufficient for everyone.
I wasn't putting it in the context of CyCbl, HyCbl and folic acid. In the context of the whole post I had made clear that folinic acid isn't the same. Also that does not change what the meaning of what I meant in this reworded form. NOBODY HAS TO HAVE FOLINIC ACID (NOT NECESSARY) and EVERYONE MUST HAVE L-METHYLFOLATE (NOT SUFFICIENT) (in their body, unspoken).
I trust that my restatement makes clear what I meant. I'm sure it is more satifying in these forms.
Also, I am trying to find the items that work for EVERYBODY, not just those of "normal" genes. Maybe finding myself always in that 19% category (the same as folic acid it might appear) I remove all assumptoins about what "should" work because to be here, most people have multiple casues based on lots of assumptions. As we all know this forum is a hotbed of those with folate related polymorphisms. My suggestion of folates has ALWAYS been get the healing started and then trila the other folates to see if they work for you. Until somebody gets healing started they are not getting any clues to healing. A lack of sucess in getting healing started is the same old illness that got them here. It does tell them that they are not doing something required for healing. Once one gets healing started one can find things that turn healing off or increase healing. Those are the clues needed to solve the problem. So if one trials folinic acid and it doesn't work, they still have to trial l-methylfolate. So if somebody says, "I'm not happy with my healing rate" I'll send them to the same old reasons b12/folate doesn't work. If it still doesn't work after checking all items, then it is likely either a critical cofactor or basic missing or glutathione/NAC. which are all on the list but often ignored.
And because of your own hypersensitivities shared by some others, I do caution on L-carnitine fumarate and have worked out a titration starting at 100mcg of carnitine for hypersensitives.and not make the assumption that everybody can take it. in "normal" doses. I reviewed why it was banned for sale in Canada, a complaint from somebody taking klonopin and they had the expected carnitine response and nobody understood it so they banned it. So, trying to come up with a protocol safe and effective for as many as possible I have to take in account all of us folks that have one thing or another at < 20% proability just the same. What is the safest most effective way to heal? With that as a goal I can suggest l-methylfolafte as most likely to succeed in starting healing for the largest percentage of everyone.. I'll never succeed but then how close can I get? Somebody not being able to utilize folinic acid is a lot more likely than someone having a massive overkill response to (usually) l-carnitine or occasionally AdoCbl. What I hope to be able to do is map to symptoms the ten or so most frequent pathways making the responses predictable.
So I would like to ask a question. As my questionaire was built largely on MeCbl and AdoCbl single dose screening, what I found is that those with no deficiency symptoms have no responses of any kind to either or both, 75% for one, 80% for both. How l-methylfolate fits into that will be posted later. That is a combination effect, not L-methylfolate alone or compared to folinic acid. Does no deficiency no response hold true with L-methylfolate? Do you have any differential effectivness from l-methylfolate? Have you done A-B swtichs for alternating months to see? Was that done with all the folks who found folinic effective? Or would those folks have a differntial effect of L-methylfolate being say 50% more effective? And if so, what would that mean? I don't know. I've never looked for it or had it come out an announce itself. I ran that test and found folinic acid made me very sick in a week or less. Running these A-B trials is part of the whole process for a person who is seeking to optimize their program for their own personal healing.