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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    But most of the time people wi heal with the quartet?

    I assume "wi" is a typo for "will'. I would say a lot of people have a chance for substantial improvement. How far that goes depends a lot on how good they get at following the clues, how much actual damage and what kind of damages they have as compared to recovery of function. Also, there are at least 20 or 30 items that feed into it. There is a lot of co-morbidity of possibly completely different causes. There are no guarantees in any of this. I had to do a lot of physical rehabilitation to regain my muscles. Also, how do you define "heal"? I am healed from CFS/FMS and congestive heart failure but if methyltrap returns I could develop it all over again in a year of methyltrap.

    I no longer have the symptoms of CFS, FMS or congestive heart failure. Symptoms can start returning in 3 days if I can't get a 5 star MeCbl and a little longer if I can't get a 5 star AdoCbl. Too much of some vitamins and methyl block occurs. However, FMS/CFS/ME is more than a few deficiency symptoms. It takes a long time to develop these diseases as a whole complex of symptoms and damages. Sub Acute Combined Degeneration is in substantial remission but that only means I'm maybe 6 months from a wheelchair. I was within some weeks or so at one point. That isn't part of the definition of CFS/FMS/ME, but as far as I can tell that is a prolonged and very serious version of them. There is a continuous progression towards them as symptoms intensify and stick around. It took 3-4 years for the first symptoms of that to appear after entering methyltrap.


    Is there any way to determine what vitamin may be responsible for the deadlock other than trial and error?

    There is a mistake in assumptions right there. All four usually affect the deadlock. The relative seriousness of each determines the mix of symptoms and damage. Because of various patterns I would be inclined to say that genetic issues are probably the cause; polymorphisms affecting folate, whether a specific form of carnitine acts as a vitamin for a person, and who knows what else. These lead faster or slower to a deadlock. Trials are needed to find the best response to perhaps 20-30 nutrients in a complex relationship. I found the first 10 things or so without an error.

    I could have missed out on all of it by buying the wrong brand of MeCbl to begin with or chewing and swallowing it. Increasing B1 by too much can ruin everything if it is not recognized. What are you really trying to find out? People making wrong choices can be permanent or temporary depending upon the person in all sorts of ways. People choosing too much of the right thing can stop everything. It's a tricky maze. Trial and error implies some kind of randomness. That isn't what has to be done. There was a reason backed up by research of various sorts for the choice of each thing. Until one sees what remains after the deadlock quartet and obvious responses and induced deficiencies, one can't target the right things. "Trial and error" implies a completely different process than targeted choices and titration trials. The needed amount of x can change because of other changes of other nutrients. There is a strategy to it, not just throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks. Order is important. timing is important. Method is important and it isn't "trial and error".
     
  2. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Sorry to hear you've been having a bad time Freddd. I take your point, some my questions suggest I'm coming from the wrong place, looking for clarity/certainty where in fact every case differs and there is only ongoing experimentation. But isn't there an answer to at least some of my questions; Q8? others?
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Yes, and I'm working on it. I'm trying to do a better more clear write-up. Q8 is complicated.
     
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    So @Freddd if I was taking the DQ and felt an improvement at the beginning but am no longer feelings benefit and there are as you say, another 20 or 30 vitamins that may be causing a deadlock in healing.

    By what process do I determine which of these other vitamins to try first?

    Thanks
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    What makes you think that you are not merely getting sick with flu or something?

    The 'hot" is puzzling. Can you describe all that better? More completely or details?

    What symptoms are worsening? Which list of symptoms are they on the symptoms posts?

    From that one can often see whether is methylation or ATP that needs strengthening.

    Are you taking all the basics?

    Like D, magnesium, zinc? B-complex? other b basics? How much?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  6. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd

    The dull throat has gone so it may have been a cold or something.

    The heat is very hard to describe. It has been with me all through my illness the more I push myself or the more exhausted I am the worse it gets.
    It is like an internal heat in my head and upper body. Infection, Inflammation, toxins? I don't know but I feel if if I could find the answer to it, I would also find the answer to my illness.

    My only real symptom is total lack of energy. PEM, fatigue, exhaustion. To me they are really all different names for the same thing.

    The first few days I felt like the crushing fatigue was lifting. A few mornings that heavy drained feeling was gone and it was actually easy to get out of bed but now I have fallen back to exhaustion again.

    Maybe it just needs more time but it is disappointing after feeling better initially and then going backwards again.

    I also dont think i have noticed any low potassium symptoms like muscle cramps for example.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers.

    Here are the low potassium symptoms.

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
     
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Are you suggesting the fatigue could be from low potassium? Maybe but I have tried taking potassium and it had no effect.
     
  9. CaliObserver

    CaliObserver

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    Hi. I'm new here. I want to second that question:
    I have weakness and/or fatigue almost all of the time. I would estimate that is common in these parts. Worsening of fatigue/lethargy is immediately triggered by certain foods for sure, another story, but I am discovering an amplified variation can come on seemingly at random as of late. Right now, I am taking a few Seeking Health Active B12s a day, and I've never taken K so I'm excited at the possibility that I need it. How would one differentiate between low K or "normal?"

    Freddd thank you for sharing your methodologies! I found you by means of 23andme, MTHFR, and then methylation. I'm looking to start working into your protocol tomorrow after reading for I think weeks. Officially I have Progressive MS. Lately, it has started to align more with ALS, but hey it's just a title. I gave up on that bologna long ago, but I did go to UCSF for reevaluation last year and they could only offer me off-label Rituxan which I gave serious consideration to then decided "no!"

    I've a long way to go to say I'm recovering, but I quit gluten and started B12 and in a couple weeks I've seen positive changes. I've no idea if it'll help, but this is similar to a Klenner protocol I tried (I think Krebs cycle), it's something I haven't tried, and I've got no better option before me.

    I probably should've made the intro elsewhere. It flowed, sorry.

    N
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi N,

    You are right, it flows on this one as your description of symptoms is in the same set of symptoms of all the rest of us. Its as good as many and better than most.

    If you read up on SubAcute Combined Degeneration which I have it will sound very familiar. The tie-in is that all these things have low CNS cobalamin levels. SACD also low body b12 and bi-lateral generally. Welcome aboard. Before some people wonder what you are doing here, if you have looked at the lists of symptoms by effective nutrients, you will like find a whole lot of familiar ones. The only difference is that I don't get offered all those awful and very expensive drugs you get offered. As far as I can tell we are all suffering from similar sets of symptoms of the deadlock quartet plus a few factors. I'm sure you have found some interesting reading, especially the Levels of methylation and healing, which includes ATP startup. The Krebs cycle is of much import to most of us.

    Do you have "anxiety"?. That appears one of the key indicators as to which branch of this disease complex you might be sitting on. There is a whole lot of other things besides B12 we can talk about. Welcome aboard. Let's start at the beginning in terms I and others will understand, Go to those lists and make your own copies containing what ALL your symptoms are including say a snapshot 10 years ago, at 5 years old and 10 years old. This will give me a far better idea of how you fit into the whole pattern.

    The whole fatigue problem is multifactorial. There are body reasons and CNS reasons for fatigue. I've been there and done an awful lot of them.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    What other symptoms of yours are not being affected by your current program. What is your current program snapshot; what are you taking currently?
     
  12. CaliObserver

    CaliObserver

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    @Freddd,
    I appreciate your reply. I agree it looks like we have a set of many similar symptoms. I have read through your symptom lists, and I see you've described symptoms that I had not even thought of but that I have.

    I should fill in a few more details. I'm 32. I was "normal" healthy until I started my second year of college at almost 20. Looking back I can see that my symptoms initially began soon after I was required to get the Hepatitis B vaccine to enter 10th-grade upon moving to California. I went to the doctor complaining of purple/blue and cold hands and feet in 1999, but was told I had poor circulation and needed better exercise. Fast forward to 2002 and I was diagnosed in June with probable MS. Progression was fast for about the first two years when I was going to the doctor and trying various drugs. It's going on ten years I've been in a wheelchair. I do not take any prescription drugs.

    Indeed I have found familiarity with those things. It is refreshing to have found this info and a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

    I've never seen myself as having anxiety, though in May I contracted Norovirus, and since recovering I would say yes I do at times. That was quite awful and left me with some progression. Anxiety most often comes when I have discomfort I need to get help with or when need to relieve myself. It makes speech difficult. Most of the time I can only get a few words out at a time, other times I speak close to normal, and less often I cannot get even one word out. I cope with my symptoms by using medical cannabis and it's interesting to mote that my needs have sometimes dissipated in these past 2 weeks. I've repeatedly quit for a time to verify it is not detrimental to me. I use the cannabinoids while leaving the plant matter behind. I wanted to respond quickly, but let me take a look at some SACD stuff, customize some symptom lists, and I will get back to you in a little bit. One difference I see between myself most here is that my digestion and bowels seem to function normally, but as I said before I am very sensitive to food making me weak fatigued and lethargic. Since giving up gluten, I think I am starting to get a handle on that, though it is very difficult because my sensitivities do not align with any of the lists I found online. Happy to be aboard.
     
  13. CaliObserver

    CaliObserver

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    Real quick. Yesterday I noticed it felt like I had a pill stuck in my esophagus. I was sure I had completely swallowed my pills a few hours earlier. I did some reading online and see it might be acid reflux or GERD. I've never had that before. Does it mean anything?

    I'm currently taking a mixture of supplements until I get my new order:
    Ultimate Flora Probiotic
    Holistic Health All in One (has folic acid! The bottle is over half gone.)
    Dr. Mercola Krill Oil
    Douglas Labs B-Complex
    Seeking Health Active B12 [MeCbl, AdeCbl, Quatrefolic, glucosamine salt] 1000mcg B12, 800mcg folate - i've been taking three of these lozenges under the tongue for about two weeks
    Seeking Health Mg Plus
    Seeking Health 5-HTP
    Solgar Metafolin 800mcg
    Survival Shield Liquid Nascent Iodine
    Thorne Liquid D/K2
    LifeExtension Super Selenium Complex
    NOW Zinc
    Vitamin C Foundation Sodium Ascorbate

    That's a good start, let me know if you have any suggestions. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2014
  14. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Hi again Fredd. I hope you're feeling better. I've been implementing your suggestions with my daughter over the past 3 days, but with no sign of startup (she's not felt in any way different from usual). Day1 she took the folate followed (after 1hr) by the B12 Infusion and the Dibencoplex. Day2 she added the LCF. Day 3 she doubled the B12 Infusion and Dibencoplex. I'm assuming she's not starting up because something's missing. But what? Any suggestions as to what we could try? Below is a list of her regime as at today. Quantities calculated as amounts of the element (eg 0.85g magnesium citrate equates to 140mg elemental Mg).

    10:00h (i.e. on waking)
    1 x SolgarFolate 800mcg (swallowed)
    1 x Doctor’s Best LCF 855mg (swallowed)

    11:00h
    1 x B12 Infusion (retained behind upper lip for up to 2 hrs)
    0.5 x Dibencoplex (rubbed on to upper gum)

    12:00h
    1g Vit-C (Ascorbic Acid)
    140mg Mg (as citrate)
    160mg K (as gluconate)
    1g Taurine
    1 x cheap generic Vit-E capsule (pending delivery of Jarrow Gamma-E)
    1 x Fish Oils (1100mg, of which 700mg Omega3, of which 360mg EPA/ 240mg DHA)
    4000IU Vit-D3 (Nature’s Answer drops)

    17:00h
    1g Vit-C (as above)
    1 x Fish Oils (as above)

    19:00h
    1 x Fish Oils (as above)

    21:30h (bedtime)
    1g Vit-C (Ascorbic Acid)
    140mg Mg
    160mg K (as above)
    1g Taurine
    1 x cheap generic Lecithin 1200mg
    2x Biotics Research Multi Mins (100mg Ca; 50mg Mg; 8mg Zn; 25mg Se; 1mg Mn; 5mg Mo; 50mg K)
    1 x Pure Encapsulations B-Complex

    Should we perhaps increase the Mg (current daily total 330mg)? Is Mag Citrate OK or should we switch to Mag Glycinate Chelate? Should we increase the Zinc from 8mg to 25mg? Chelate? Increase from 1 to 2 x B-Complex? Throw in some SAM-e and/or TMG? Any thoughts/ suggestions?
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Q1 You say, on Day 1 to take 1x EnzyTherB12Infusion. But only 1 (x 1mg)? Previously with Jarrow, the recommendation was 1 (x 5mg), so why not 5 (x 1mg) EnzyTher now?


    There were a number of considerations. The N=1000 questionnaire development study and follow-up I did showed that nobody could tell the difference by effect until they had reached the limit of saturation with a 1mg dose. Then in discussion with Rich, he agreed that 1mg of MeCbl would be a reasonable dose that wouldn’t “force” anything in his opinion. We were working out a progression from the SMP to active b12/folate protocol that we both could agree with if the SMP didn’t produce satisfactory results in 3 months.
    Another consideration was that the idea of 1mg was less scary than the idea of 5mg. Also, we were trying to control the entry level cost. We agreed that being able to afford to buy an initial set of supplements and getting started was more important than a higher dose, especially since it would not make a noticeable difference for some months at least. At that time, the relationship, or lack thereof, of MeCbl dose to Methylfolate dose and/or potassium dose was not clear. Rich did not consider shortening the saturation period important or maybe even possible. I thought that coming up with a transition plan far more important than any specific dose that wouldn’t make any significant difference for more or less months. There was no discussion at all for a transition from the Active B12/folate Protocol to the SMP


    Q2 Re Dibencoplex, you say to take and 1/10-1/2. Within that wide range, what does one's choice depend on? What’s best to try? ¼?

    AdoCbl is very different in startup effects from MeCbl. Generally a single dose for the body and a larger single dose for the CNS later takes care of initial startup and regular doses maintain it. Again, the smaller the dose, the more affordable and the less intimidating it was. The dosage effect is very non-linear just as MeCbl. A person with anxiety would take a small dose requiring several for saturation at all levels, slowing down startup, a person without anxiety could take the larger and be done with AdoCbl startup in typically a single dose.

    Q3 If successful startup on Day1, do we continue on Days 2, 3 and beyond, on the same minimal dosages as day1? Or step up the dosages? And if so, which ones and how much?


    I wouldn’t be too hasty. For many, startup occurred on the 2, 3rd or 4th day on the same dose. Don’t forget, the Methylfolate is part of this initial process. I started with 400mcg. I had so little and no assurance of any more for 2 years. Many coming from the SMP would be taking 200mcg. Again, that was fine too as both 200mcg and 400mcg would start methylation but not be enough to continue healing so both would provide donuthole paradoxical folate deficiency to serve as a startup flag and a place to start titrating from, and again small enough not to be intimidating. Methylation startup and ATP startup are very intimidating for those who are anxious. This anxiety appears to be direct evidence of damage in the limbic system. These amounts are fully adequate for startup unless something else is deadlocking.

    Q4 If no startup on minimal dosages, do we try again on increased dosages? Or switch to trying to start up with LCF?

    After 3 or 4 days without startup it’s time to add the LCF. This should be titrated, either a normal titration or a micro titration if there is anxiety.
    Q5 You say “If you don't get startup with the first 3, then titrate the LCF” – do you mean omit the B12s and folate for now, and try to start up on LCF alone? If so then presumably bring back in the B12s and folate once successfully started up on LCF?

    No. It is the deadlock quartet. You add an item, not subtract 3.

    Q6 Re LCF, is it 855mg 1xdaily? Single or split doses? (Short half-life?

    So that we can compare carnitine doses across varieties I use the “carnitine” mass of 500mg rather than the fumarate mass of 855mg. Carnitine has 3 forms we may be dealing with and 2 main alternatives so we have to be able to compare amounts across multiple forms.

    IF person has anxiety do microtitration, starting at 33mcg for 3 doses a day each time on empty stomach with the Jarrow Liquid Freebase carnitine, and increase 10% a day as tolerable.

    IF person doesn’t have anxiety do a regular titration starting at perhaps 20mg (approx) for 3 doses per day. The first form to try is L carnitine fumarate such as Drs. Best, Jarrow, Swanson (all Sigma Tau carnitine) or other such vitamin brand. To start with add 20mg a day, either as another dose or another dose starting with the earliest one. Fumarate will be about 90% of people, ALCAR 10%. One will typically work like gangbusters, the other won’t and a mix doesn’t work either, typically. Try the other kind after reaching 125mg daily total with no effect, starting over on amount.


    Q7 Re potassium, there’s talk of 1-3g per day? Am I right in thinking the symptoms of excessive K are similar to the symptoms of insufficiency? Can we pre-empt deficiency by going straight to 2g or 3g from day 1? And please confirm we're talking about elemental K, so 2g equates to 12g potassium gluconate or 4g potassium chloride? (Which form is preferable?)

    The symptoms of excessive potassium are different enough. First the spasms are like not being able relax the muscle when contracting it rather than it contracting when relaxed. Second excessive potassium doesn’t come on in response to starting methylation. This is the flag that lets one know what is happening. If started in advance how would you ever know or how much? Yes, elemental K. I like the gluconate best despite the larger amount of material. It’s easiest on my stomach. Some like citrate.

    Q8 Should we take a multi-min/ multi-vit supplement (i.e. in addition to the fish oils, lecithin, B-Complex, the Gamma-E, the ascorbic acid powder and calcium and magnesium citrate tabs/powders)? If so, which one? Or if the only additional things we need are zinc, selenium (and inositol?), why not just take additional supplements for these, rather than a multi? Is it still advisable to avoid copper and iron?


    A multivitamin is a difficult starting point as many of the things need increasing by separates anyway or have folic acid or CyCbl or too much B1, b2 or b3. I take a multi mineral plus additional minerals as needed. All the basic vitamins and minerals are needed. After healing is started it is much easier to adjust doses and tell what is happening. I prefer a high Gamma E like Now foods 8 factor E. Inositol is ome of those I find added laster after the basics and deadlock quartet and getting balanced. Many of these things have to be adjusted over and over as others are adjusted. I have copper in my multi mineral in a balanced amount,. Iron isn’t needed by most men and meny women. It intervfears with absorption of al sorts of things and should be isolated in a meal without E and some toher things 8 hours away from E and other sensitive vitamins. B complex needs to be taken twice a day. I take most everything but E, selenium and chromium in divided doses.

    Q9 How much calcium and magnesium?

    Reasonable. I take the Calcium Citrate from Costco which includes 500mg of calcium , some magnesium and an additional magnesium capsule. It also has half a dozen trace minerals.

    Q10 What times of day should things be taken? Which things need to be separate from which other things? Which are better taken together? Which should be taken with food

    I worked out a schedule that works for me. I eat twice a day and take all the “with food” vitamins at that time. Because I include 600mg of potassium and 6 grams of C. I take the methylfolate about 90 minutes before dinner. I take my morning 4mg of folate shortly after wakeup with SAM-e, pregnenolone, DHEA, TMG if taking it, thyroid, l-carnitine fumarate and that usually it. If I need extra potassium. I then take potassium an hour later, at least an hour before eating. Iron has to be with a meal at least 8 hours separate from vitamin E and maybe others. Then I take anoter 300mg of potassium at bedtime. I take the sublingual b12s at carious times duing gthe day and find the best kick from the moring if about 2 hours after SAM-e and carnitine, etc.

    Q11 You talk about B3 turning down your methylation. Why/when would you want to do this? When you’re feeling too wired to sleep?


    Actually I don’t “talk about B3 turning down your methylation”. I talk about B3 increasing the need for potassium and/or methylfolate and stopping healing. I wouldn’t want to take additional b3 as it can cause additional damage.

    Q12 Are crashes inevitable or can they be avoided?

    What kind of crashes? Those induced by too much b1, b2 or b3? Those caused by glutathione, whey, NAC? Those caused by folic acid or folinic acid? Those caused by over doing things?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  16. colinmb

    colinmb

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  17. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Hi Freddd, and thanks for your help with those questions. As per my other current post, I've had my daughter, Anna, on the initial supplement regime for 8 days now, but no sign of anything happening. At risk of cluttering up the thread with duplication, here again is here current regime - LCF was added on about day 3, so she's been on this regime for 5 days. My question is whether you can suggest what additions/adjustments we should now try. I could make changes myself, but I don't know which changes are more likely to be effective...

    Quantities calculated as amounts of the element (eg 0.85g magnesium citrate equates to 140mg elemental Mg).

    10:00h (i.e. on waking)
    1 x SolgarFolate 800mcg (swallowed)
    1 x Doctor’s Best LCF 855mg (swallowed)

    11:00h
    1 x B12 Infusion (retained behind upper lip for up to 2 hrs)
    0.5 x Dibencoplex (rubbed on to upper gum)

    12:00h
    1g Vit-C (Ascorbic Acid)
    140mg Mg (as citrate)
    160mg K (as gluconate)
    1g Taurine
    1 x cheap generic Vit-E capsule (pending delivery of Jarrow Gamma-E)
    1 x Fish Oils (1100mg, of which 700mg Omega3, of which 360mg EPA/ 240mg DHA)
    4000IU Vit-D3 (Nature’s Answer drops)

    17:00h
    1g Vit-C (as above)
    1 x Fish Oils (as above)

    19:00h
    1 x Fish Oils (as above)

    21:30h (bedtime)
    1g Vit-C (Ascorbic Acid)
    140mg Mg
    160mg K (as above)
    1g Taurine
    1 x cheap generic Lecithin 1200mg
    2x Biotics Research Multi Mins (100mg Ca; 50mg Mg; 8mg Zn; 25mg Se; 1mg Mn; 5mg Mo; 50mg K)
    1 x Pure Encapsulations B-Complex

    Should we perhaps increase the Mg (current daily total 330mg)? Is Mag Citrate OK or should we switch to Mag Glycinate Chelate? Should we increase the Zinc from 8mg to 25mg? Chelate? Increase from 1 to 2 x B-Complex? Throw in some SAM-e and/or TMG? Any thoughts/ suggestions?
     
  18. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Can anyone tell me whether the sensations my daughter Anna has been experiencing sound at all like methylation start-up? And any suggestions as to where to go from here? Anna’s on the regime I detailed a few posts back in this thread, which I’d best not repeat again here, but it centres on 1 x SolgarFolate 800mcg + 1 x Doctor’s Best LCF 855mg + 1 x B12 Infusion + 0.5 x Dibencoplex, + 1 x Pure Encapsulations B-Complex plus a variety of other basics.

    Day 3 – all of these came on in the evening, several hours after taking the supplements, and lasted just a few minutes

    1) Sharp single needle-like pain every few seconds, in LHS big toe.

    2) Sharp single needle-like pain every few seconds, in one armpit

    3) Sharp multiple needle-like pains every few seconds, in fingertips.

    4) Throbbing needle-like pain going up the length of the inside of the left leg. –


    Then no further unusual sensations till 2 weeks later when we increased the Pure Encapsulations B-Complex from 1 to 2 and added 15mg Zinc (44mg Zinc Citrate). On the second day of this, in the evening:

    1) Sharp single needle-like or stabbing pains in arch of right foot

    2) Aching pains in neck, left shoulder/shoulder blade and left side of back.

    On the third day of this:

    1) Stabbing head pains starting around 6pm and continuing to get worse into the evening.

    2) Sharp pains all across the head, stabbing in time with heartbeat – continuing on into the night.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Colinmb,

    These pains sound very much like what I have when nerves are first starting to come back. Sharp intermittent pains. Sometimes I can feel them all the way down from my neck or back following a dermatome but not always.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=der...rzFL9L-oQSfuoFA&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1308&bih=717

    Pick some that are easy for you to read and cover the areas afflicted. For instance in my foot, the L5 area is partially numb, the L4 has shooting pains.

    For me the shooting pains are then followed by intense pain that fades to a duller ache, then intense tingles and less intense tingles. As that continues I suddenly get hypersensitive areas that gradually fade to more normal feeling. I found I had a big increase in healing going from 15mg of zinc daily to 65mg. I titrated by 12.5mg at a time. Tripling the fish oils might help healing. I take 6 capsules a day. However, they may not be the same concentration.
     
  20. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Thanks for that Freddd. Anna has increased the zinc and upped the fish oils to 6 a day. Those needle-like pains stopped and increasing the zinc hasn't made them return. The new thing now is a persistent hot burning feeling/headache over the top of the head and burning in her middle and outer ears as well as pains behind her eyes. (She also has bad palpitations but that's nothing new). I'm thinking could she need more potassium (currently on 320mg elemental) - although she doesn't really have many of the things on the hypokalemia symptoms list I'm looking at. Or could it be too much or too little Folate (currently 1 x 800mcg)? I'm not at all clear as to how much Folate she should really be taking. And I've just seen that the dosage should be split (up to 3/4 daily)- which she's not been doing. On the plus side we're encouraged because she hasn't had any flu symptoms in the head for a couple of weeks - although she does have them in her neck. But what do you think about the headaches? More potassium? Folate up or down?
     

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