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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    Good to see you back. You mentioned lecithin above. I was wondering how it helped you and/or what kind of benefits do you use it for? I've been almost completely unable to tolerate 'normal' fats -- you know, basic dietary fats -- for years now, and I think it's due to a catch-22. Not enough fats, not enough choline (or lecithin), like from egg yolks for example…and then my poor liver and gallbladder suffer, (not to mention methylation, krebs cycle, fat metabolism), because I'm not getting anywhere near the RDA. Plus, I've been taking l-carnitine, but not eating much fat, so may be lowering choline levels even further. My skin couldn't be any drier, and it's been that way for about 3-4 years now...Does that make sense?

    Also, does anyone know the difference between taking phosphatidylcholine compared to choline bitartrate?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    I've been taking lecithin since I read THE CURE AND PREVENTION OF ATERIOSCLERORSIS by Robert Rinse PhD physical chemistry. He had solved the problem in the 50s because he was dying, given about 6 months before his heart arteries clogged completely. He was desperate and discovered 3 forms of cholesterol. A 300 degree C. melting hard deposit made with what we now call trans fats, a 100 degree C melting form made with a mix of fats and a body heat melting form that is normally a liquid crystal form made with polyunsaturated fats and essential fatty acids from lecithin and the right fats. Anyway he survived another couple of decades without arteriosclerosis. I started it in late 73 or early 74. Each time I reviewed it I decided to keep taking it. It also is a good emulsifier; mixes fats with water.

    I also take the omega3, cook mostly with olive oil or canola sometimes. I eat butter and cream. My cholesterol is good and ratio of HDL is very good.

    My skin is the best in my life except for shear age and not dry. It is clearly better than last year after about 6 months not being in paradoxical folate deficiency. Good luck.
     
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Fred -- I've read similar things in the last few days. I think I may have been spooked by the soy connection, but it turns out that there are no soy proteins in lecithin, so it's not an issue. Even Paul Jaminet actually recommends it. I stopped fish oil as it caused my hair to fall out more than usual, but am eating salmon twice a week. And that's about the only fat I seem to tolerate so far. Hopefully the lecithin will help in that regard.

    Thanks again. :)
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    You know, when my healing turned on the loss of hair (male pattern) returned to what it was when I was 39 before the crash. Loss of hair might be a signal of a good thing. I don't know. Everything was healing so nicely I noticed it in passing and decided that to stop it I might have to "break" healing. The hair loss did not restart when I went on testosterone replacement. Instead it started up after the Deadlock Quartet.
     
  5. trollo

    trollo Senior Member

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    I hope aging is not a sign of healing too...
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Trollo,

    So far no fountain of youth to be found. But normal aging instead of rapid all system body breakdown is much better. My legs which had been neuropathic slick since the mid 80s has grown back some hair. I'm never going to recover to age 39 when I crashed. At this point I'm lucky to be a pretty normal 65. I had 25 years of the middle years chopped out of my life. If normal and healthy for me also includes not as much hair as from the 60s, that's ok. At least the brain and body works.
     
  7. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    iron might help hairloss- I was anemic as a child, but longterm it may cause liver damage at higher doses. I got really bad food poisoning and am still exhausted from terrible sleep apnea. I'm still stuck on a ventilator and asv machine and started diamox as an experiment
     
  8. debsicle

    debsicle

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    I have a quick question - i have been following this forum with great interest for the last 3 months and doing the active protocol for about 2 and a half months. i dont have any actual illness at present, but was diagnosed with a b12 deficiency about 5-6 years ago. I had a lot of symptomes for a long time like ibs, brain fog, fatigue etc but it blew up about 6-7 years ago and for about a year i was quite ill. I slept all the time, couldn't concentrate was just so irritible and angry.
    Anyway, you all knw the story. so when i found out it was a vitamin boy was i happy! i thought to myself 'well, this is great, you don't have cancer or CFS or MS'. but, i am in ireland where the only b12s you can get are hb12 and cb12 and there is absolutely no information WHATSOEVER on any other kind. so i started getting injections every three months where i felt great for a while and then crashed completely for the couple of weeks before the next one. not to mention my sleep patterns being destroyed by constant waking for the last couple of years.

    anyway, sorry for being long winded. the reason i am saying this is that like you guys but to a much lesser degree my quality of life has been all over the place for the last few years and when i said it to the nurse that i felt my levels werent right (b12 serum of 333, 3 months ago) and was there something else i could do she actually laughed at me. that is when i went online and started searching and i have found this wonderful forum!

    i have felt better than i have in years after taking a and m b12s and metafolin. but it has been a rather haphazard journey for me and i am a bit stuck now with what to do.

    for the first few weeks i had blinding headaches in the evening but i was sleeping right through for the first time in 2 years so i was not tired during the day. Had intense reaction to mb12, jittery and wobbly and a feeling like anxiety but not that in my chest. had a mad reaction of giddyness for adb12 the first time i took it. had to wait a month for the pure encapsulations b complex so started that later on. take lcf in mornings, and am a big buzzy happy person all morning. i have suffered from severe depression in the past and i have almost none of that now.

    but now the headaches are mostly gone and i am fatigued in the evening but when i go to bed i spring awake and can't go asleep til about 1am (normally it was 10pm, then 12am which was fine) and i am having a lot of trouble waking up in the morning with lots of snoozes on my alarm.

    has anyone any idea why this is?

    and Freddd, if it wasn't for you i'd still be exhausted and foggy all the time. So thank you for that from the bottom of my heart.

    anyway this is what i take:

    250mg LCF - early morning

    before/during breakfast
    1 pure encap b complex
    1/2 enzemic therapy meb12
    1/4 adb12 source naturals
    2 omega 3 caps (cant remember the measurements)

    before dinner:
    400mcg metafolin

    before bed

    calcium/magnesium/potassium country life x2

    i am coming up to the time where i would be getting a hb12 injection and i am a bit tired but suspect its more to do with my weird sleep pattern. i am getting blood tests tomorrow and am not going to get the injection.

    oh sorry, i meant to put in there...i also take 2000-3000mg of vit c, 30 mg of zinc and vit d3 and E in the fish oils..
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
    MissFancypants likes this.
  9. ajw13

    ajw13

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    Debsicle are you taking enough potassium? When i started a plan that looks very similar to yours i was getting tension headaches, jittery weird feelings as well (Still get the headaches occasionally). I wake up after 6 hours of sleep and can't get back to sleep, however i haven't been feeling tired mentally, just physically i am tired. I drank some coconut water last night and ate some other potassium rich foods. Also took 5 potassium supplements and finally got a good nights sleep. Should be interesting to see in the following nights if keeping my potassium up with foods helps out.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Debsicle,

    A second LCF dose without food in midafternoon of 1/2 the size of the morning dose might maintain energy the rest of the day and get tired at bedtime. For me, I started getting really tired in the mid afternoon (after a lifetime of sleep disorders) and then over months it worked later and later in the day until it was at a reasonable bed time. I've known other people where it keeps getting earlier and earlier until it comes around to bedtime.

    The MeCbl and AdoCbl should be taken between lip and gum other than at a meal retaining 1-2 hours to maximize absorption.

    Low dose b-complex needs to be taken twice a day and no folic acid or folinic acid in it until you have determined by trials that they don't block the Metafolin for you. Also, relatively low levels of B1, b2, b3 (by vitamin pill standards) so as not to overdrive need for potassium and folate without much if any healing. Most of the things are better if taken twice a day in divided doses because of serum halflife.

    How much potassium daily? Vitamins A, C, D, E, zinc, are all essential for healing. If one does not take all the basics then it is one induced deficiency stopping healing after another making an almost unsolvable problems.
     
  11. debsicle

    debsicle

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    Hiya ajw13,

    yep, i drink a lot of coconut water and i have supplemental potassium which i take when i get a headache - i was doing a hell of a lot more of everything because i got all excited at feeling better and it made me very withdrawn and i got extremely bad headaches then so i am down to what i put above and am doing much better.

    i was sleeping really well at first and now i seem to be back to disrupted sleep though, which is annoying. ...i have been perplexed as to how i could go from amazing sleep when i started the protocal right back to disruption. all trial and error i suppose!

    thanks for the reply
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  12. debsicle

    debsicle

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    Hi Freddd,

    i was thinking the same thing about the carnitine, i will take some midafternoon today and see what happens - i started out taking the b-complex twice a day and it sort of hurt my stomach (like a dull ache) but actually, i think that maybe i am mildly allergic to yoghurt and i was eating loads of it at the time, so i will take two today - the one i am taking has metafolin in it so no folic or folenic (boy was that complex hard to get here in ireland - took a month to get here from the states from the one website i could find that would send it to me).

    and actually i have been using the sublinguals directly after breakfast so i will start absorbing at another time.

    am supplimenting with potassium when i think i need it, but i am drinking about 500ml of coconut water each day too. getting A, D and E from fish oils, maybe i need more of the E i think. and C and zinc in fizzy form. oh and i take magnesium and calcium too.

    thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
     
  13. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Hi Fredd and all. My first post. I’m sure these newbie posts are boringly familiar and it’ll look like I’ve been too lazy to read all the available information, but I’m struggling and I hope you’ll bear with me. I've been trying for the past 12 months to help my 22-year-old daughter Anna, who has been suffering CFS symptoms for years. For the past year I've had her on Rich's Simplified Protocol though, in recent weeks, I've replaced the Perque hydroxocobalamin with Source Naturals Methylcobalamin 1000mcg daily, and added Country Life dibencozide. The reality is, however, that Anna has not improved at all over the 12 months. I've just spent a couple of days looking afresh at the subject; I've found a lot of stuff (much of it on this site, and a lot of it, of course, by Fredd) that for some reason I failed to spot a year ago when starting out, and I now realise that Anna and I will never get anywhere just crudely following Rich's Simplified Protocol - partly because it takes no account of the individual, and partly because more is known now than when it was written. We may even have been doing more harm than good.

    So now I’d like to re-start with Anna, taking into account the latest thinking and I was hoping that, having read many, many pages of posts, I’d know exactly how to proceed. Actually though, I’ve ended up pretty confused.

    I can’t find more recent outline of Fredd’s protocol than this: http://maartens.home.xs4all.nl/me/RESOURCES/NEW/FredddsMB12protocol.php.htm and yet it looks outdated (eg it still has Jarrow MB12). Where can I see the latest? I was just about to place a sizeable order for Jarrow MB12 when I noticed a comment that led me to eventually (I think) find that it is no longer thought to be effective. Yet what I think is its replacement (Enzymatic Therapy) is only 1000mcg. Is none of the other 5000mcg brands (eg Solgar, Natural Factors, Source Naturals) thought to be effective? Does 5000mcg of Enzymatic Therapy (5 tabs daily) equate to 5000mcg Jarrow (1 tab daily)? One 30-tab bottle per 6 days?

    Another puzzle for me is the methodology. As I now realise, no basic protocol is not going to be right for any single individual – we all have to experiment/”titrate”. But to be honest, I’m only guessing what titrate even means (I think it means make small adjustments up and down). I’ve read bits and pieces on how to go about this, in different posts, but I’ve not been able to understand it all. Is there any one place where it is fully explained? Exactly how to start out, what incremental adjustments to make, what effects to look out for, and how to react to them?
     
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi colinmb. Here's a good place to get the core of the protocol: http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/

    At present, the ET MB12 is the only reliable choice, only in the low dose. Might be time for a petition/letter-writing campaign to them requesting 5mg choice. Dibencozide is the current favorite source of AdB12, in 10mg caps that can be opened and divided into smaller doses.

    You haven't mentioned folate. This is especially where the titration comes in. That is, starting low and slow, the 2 must be somehow coordinated. Dr. Ben Lynch, folate expert in conjunction w/ MTHFR genetics, advises that excessive reactions to folate can be countered by taking niacin. In my most recent episodes of this sort of discomfort from raising my folate, I immediately added another B12, and the reaction subsided.

    The last component of Freddd's Deadlock Quartet (each ingredient of which is necessary for progress) is L-Carnitine Fumarate. (LCF). Some people do as well or better on Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR), but I experienced nothing with ALCAR and a dramatic positive response with LCF.

    Check out the link and you should find many/most of your answers there. I'm now a real Freddd booster. The last 9 months on the protocol have redefined my life after 10 years of awfulness. I'd spent several years trying to get the SMP to work, to no avail. Best wishes to you and Anna, ahmo
     
  15. colinmb

    colinmb

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  16. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Thanks v much ahmo. One clarification please: when you say Dibencozide, do you mean Dibencoplex? And one more thing I'd like to ask. I take it from your "++ MAO +/- COMT V158, H62...." (whatever that means) that you've been tested. Should I get Anna tested if I can afford it? Via http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/ ? But they don't seem to offer the pathways test any more? And I'd need someone to interpret the results. But is it really worth it anyway?
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Colinmb.

    Jarrow MeCbl is useless in it's present incarnation in any quantity for our needs. I had a massive setback from it last year and am only now recovering that lost ground 1 mg of Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl is superior to any amount of any other brand so far by my testing. After you try that you might compare that on alternating weeks, after you get healing going, with some other brands. Also, the best in my opinion by trial AdoCbl is the Anabol Naturals. There is no suitable brand for larger doses currently in my opinion. Some are finding AOR and Enzymatic Therapy together a workable mixture, say 5mg of Enzy for each 15mg AOR.

    The basic layout, ALL BASICS, INCLUDING a low dose b-complex without folic acid or folinic acid and without CyCbl, omega3 oils, lecithin and few other things are all still needed. This isn't simple. Go through the 6 or so posting with all the symptoms listed by nutrient and makes a list by those groupings of each of your symptoms. Look at the levels of healing and identify what levels of healing needed. Look at the cautions. For instance people can take too much of some things like b1, b2, b3 that can be self-defeating. I speak from personal experience. Balance is complicated. Some things can be titrated quickly, like potassium and methylfolate because they have such specific symptoms targets.

    How are you going to interpret methylation startup effects, as clues to healing or as fearful things? Those responses are clues in themselves.That can determine how you are going to need to titrate and the variations. ATP startup especially with a generally fearful or anxious outlook is predictive of a possibly huge hyper-response of certain neuropsyc symptoms including anxiety, fear and far worse. However, a lot is determined by responsiveness and how the startup is. The anxiety appears to be a neuropsychological set of symptoms of existing functional problems and the resulting damage from the deficiencies themselves.

    Dibencozide (Dibencoplex is a brand name including a trace of Boron in the AdoCbl) is AdoCbl by another name.

    If you know how to contact the person who's website you got this from that there is a lot of updating he needs to do. I've seen it and could find no way to let him know how out of date it is. However, this thread we are on gives you the essentially current viewpoint.

    The testing has little predictive value in all this, no more than all the tests that are already done based on the chronic deficiencies already included since interpreting them is based on knowledge gleaned from folic acid and CyCbl and/or HyCbl. In my opinion they more often lead people away from what works than towards it. Trial after trial, of circular titrations since there are a dozen or more tightly interactive items.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  18. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Very helpful Freddd, thanks a lot. I'm beginning to see the central importance of titration - and I'm concerned about how well I'm going to be able to do it, particularly as the PWC is not me but my daughter. She doesn't have the mental energy to read or think about any of this, so I'm going to have to interrogate her continuously about how she's feeling; interpreting what she says rather than feeling it myself is just going make it even harder. I had her take 5x Source Naturals 1000mcg MB12 yesterday, by way of a test, to see if she sensed any effects (previously she's been taking 1 a day with no noticeable effect). Her leg and shoulder muscles felt worse (weak and burning) but she wasn't at all sure it was caused by the sublinguals, as she's been feeling terrible anyway and it might equally have been just a random fluctuation. Makes me think how hard it's going to be to isolate effects of individual supplements. (Although I now realise of course that even 5mg of Source Nats MB12 is probably ineffective.)
    You refer to ‘6 or so postings with all the symptoms listed by nutrient’. I’m afraid I can’t find them in ‘how I recovered’ or elsewhere – can you point me at them? (‘How I recovered’ refers to them but as far as I can see, has a link to only one: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-96#post-4512)
    Also I wonder if you could amplify on what you mean by ‘Look at the levels of healing and identify what levels of healing needed’.
     
  19. colinmb

    colinmb

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  20. colinmb

    colinmb

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