1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
9th Invest in ME International ME Conference, 2014 - Part 1: Autoimmunity and ME
Mark Berry begins a series of articles on the 9th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London, with a look at three presentations on autoimmunity
Discuss the article on the Forums.

THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    The vitamin C thing...I am concerned that taking them separately then could cause one to get MORE folate than one is ready for, more than one can tolerate...maybe the source of startup effects???
  2. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Unfortunately for me, no matter how much zinc I take (100-150 mg once per day) it does not affect my copper status, which is slowly sinking, now slightly BELOW borderline. I use zinc up at a fantastic rate due to allergies. I know this because if I take enough zinc I can breath again. In fact, I regain my stomach acidity, my thyroid stops being painfully hypo, and I feel much better, but it does not last even a day.

    dbkita, I don't remember which topic but when I said I can achieve perfect homocysteine (6.3) despite my two CBS defects (one being +/+) you said that was only part of the story and you asked how I feel. I would like to tell you that in case you have any insights. Remember, I have 18 genetic defects out of 30 tested.

    I feel that I can achieve health but cannot maintain it. I feel like health is a pin point upon which I cannot balance. No sooner do I fix one problem than another develops. My aunt was the same way. So, for instance, I have 3 genes that cause high blood pressure (extremely high) and must avoid salt, but then allergy season hits and it uses up so much zinc that my thyroid goes out, my adrenal gland goes out, and then I have low blood pressure and have to eat salt or pass out. The lack of consistency is why I have reached 50+ years with most of my problems undiagnosed. How I feel right now is:

    Allergies to cold, dry air (an allergy I only developed, at least to this degree, after 50) are bothering me despite taking Montelukast (Flonase no longer works). It is using up zinc required to repair the mucous membranes it damages. Due to low copper, I am too discouraged to take a high dose zinc so I am limping along with 75mg/day. My skin is so dry that it hurts. I am no doubt quite hypothyroid. How much I cannot tell...at some point I go clinically hypo. I do not lose any hair due to high dose antioxidants so my symptoms are not quite classic (usually the case for me considering the unusually high number of supplements I take to attempt to fix things). Despite taking my DHEA and magnesium I have high blood pressure now and I can feel it. I am short of breath and my chest hurts. It has been thus for months or more. I have the symptoms of a UTI but I have been taking d-mannose to get rid of it to no avail. I still have terrible low back pain and nocturia (water retention due to slow kidneys which finnaly dump that water during the night). Perhaps due to thyroid and water retention and shortness of breath, but I am exhausted and my joints hurt, so work is piling up at my house and that is certainly depressing. For instance, my trash receptacle in my bedroom is beyond full and overflowing with used kleenex...enough to depress anyone. And yet perhaps I would be depressed even without that...could be a part of the picture. Last time I measured my homocysteine was 9.0. Was that due to the zinc shortage? Zinc is required for methionine synthase. Or was it due to the fact that I have been sluffig off on my supplements ever since last year when my doc advised 2 more that caused me to puke (and I have been trying to spread out supplements ever since...but spreading them out over the day often means I never take some of the later ones...I can oly count on getting the ones at breakfast). So, for instance, at breakfast I take Thorne basic B (active), Solgar Metafolin, 50mg P5P, and 1g TMG. My later dose of 1Thorne B plus 1g TMG rarely happens. Or could it be because I stopped taking sublingual mB12 a long time ago after I had a perfect homocysteine w/o it (perhaps over time I really need it - maybe not every day, but maybe a few times/week)? There are always so many possible scenarios. I am soooootired of it all. Or maybe I only need it during allergy season (which is starting to be most of my life) due to zinc shortage causes HCL shortage. The possibilities are endlessly discouraging.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes:
    405
    United States
    You're the one who started this by dragging Rich and dbkita into this. Not only that, but you were wrong about Rich's position. Don't bother responding to this. I won't read it. This is what you said:
    SP32-20130302-102546.png
    This is what dbkita said based on your false accusation about Rich which you then transferred from another thread and reposted multiple times in this thread

    SP32-20130302-102855.png

    This is what Rich actually said. I don't see anything that suggests he didn't understand or disagree with what you were saying.
    SP32-20130302-102616.png
  4. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

    Messages:
    443
    Likes:
    267
    southeast US

    Hi Lotus,

    This is distracting. Though I think I can understand your passion for Rich's work could you possibly consider starting a separate thread to deal with your complaints? This thread has many posts that I suspect have helped many of us get a much better grasp of the Active b12 protocol, but it's getting long and constant defense of the SMP adds little other than interruption of the flow (and probably Fred's time in answering you). Many thanks.
    ahmo likes this.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes:
    405
    United States
    This has absolutely nothing to do with the SMP. Freddd is the one who started the discussion about Rich, not me. If you read my post right above yours, you'd understand that.
  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Dannybex, I do think 500mg is a lot of niacin and it is a lot of niacinamide also. Although I thought everyone could tolerate it as niacinamide. If you can tolerate the amount in 2/day of Thorne Basic B (maybe 15mg plus 15mg or so) then I would think that is fine. I believe that when you feel like death when you take these things it is because you have a liver problem, which is just mainstream medicine's way of saying your methyl cycle doesn't work. Which brings me round to asking whether or not you take an active B complex? The b's work together. A lot of people here seem to be tryint to onzie and twozie these things in but the cycles they are trying to fix do not work without ALL the required nutrients. In OUR case we cannot neglect that zinc and copper are two of the required nutrients that we are challenged in. I think if you can take a B complex 2/day then that should be enough B3 for now. You can achieve better tissue healing if you can take more but that's only a bennie. I can't take 100mg niacin or I feel like death, myself.

    Oops time has gone on since the above post. You now say you can't tolerate 1mg niacin. So...have you ever had your SAMe or homocysteine measured? What exactly is your protocol? Did you have your genes mapped? Maybe we could help you more if you reminded us in one place what you take.
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    270
    Sure but why introduce a hidden variable. Better to find the dose of methylfolate you need without interference. Otherwise you are kind of in the dark. Goes against the scientific method in my book. But to each their own. I do agree a person making the switch needs to be ready for possible consequences. It made a noticeable improvement in me several months ago when I untangled the two. Hence the several posts I put up around the holidays.
  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Yes, well...unfortunately it is not just about science but also human nature...in this case mine. I can guarantee to take only those pills I take all at once in the morning, Pills for later...well later almost never comes.
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,121
    Likes:
    1,161
    Tundras of Europa
    How about if we take the MTHF sublingually? The Solgar seems to work well this way. Do we still have to worry about interference from vitamin C?
  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    270
    In theory no. The interaction is in the gut to my understanding. But realize a significant fraction of every sublingual ends up still going into your gut. Maybe less so if under the upper lip but even then ...
  11. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    270
    Understood. My meds require I take pills six times a day. Be careful of other possible supplement cross reactions.
  12. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

    Messages:
    135
    Likes:
    47
    The Netherlands
    Please, inform us what he says about the EPA and DHA when you meet him, dbkita, I'd like to know.
    Do you plan on mentioning to him (some of) the references of the two articles I mentioned?

    ---------------------------------------------------
    The two articles being:
    What Are the Real Differences Between EPA and DHA?
    To reduce cellular inflammation, you need more EPA than DHA.
    Published on April 1, 2012 by Barry Sears, Ph.D. in In the Zone
    http://tinyurl.com/axytxn8
    And
    EPA/DHA ratio and inflammatory conditions
    http://igennus.com/fat-facts/epadha-ratio/

    The references:

    References of 'EPA/DHA ratio and inflammatory conditions'

    Bloch MH & Qawasmi A. (2011) Omega-3 fatty acid supplementation for the treatment of children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder symptomatology: systematic review and meta-analysis. Journal of the American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry 50:991-1000.

    Martins JG. (2009) EPA but not DHA appears to be responsible for the efficacy of omega-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation in depression: evidence from a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Journal of the American College of Nutrition 28: 525-42. Review.

    Sublette ME, Ellis SP, Geant AL, Mann JJ. (2011) Meta-analysis of the effects of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) in clinical trials in depression. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 72: 1577-84:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21939614

    References of 'What Are the Real Differences Between EPA and DHA?'

    1. Sears B. The Zone. Regan Books. New York, NY (1995)

    2. Chen CT, Liu Z, Ouellet M, Calon F, and Bazinet RP. “Rapid beta-oxidation of eicosapentaenoic acid in mouse brain: an in situ study.” Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 80:157-163 (2009)

    3. Chen CT, Liu Z, and Bazinet RP. “Rapid de-esterification and loss of eicosapentaenoic acid from rat brain phospholipids: an intracerebroventricular study. J Neurochem 116:363-373 (2011)

    4. Umhau JC, Zhou W, Carson RE, Rapoport SI, Polozova A, Demar J, Hussein N, Bhattacharjee AK, Ma K, Esposito G, Majchrzak S, Herscovitch P, Eckelman WC, Kurdziel KA, and Salem N. “Imaging incorporation of circulating docosahexaenoic acid into the human brain using positron emission tomography.” J Lipid Res 50:1259-1268 (2009)

    5. Martins JG. “EPA but not DHA appears to be responsible for the efficacy of omega-3 long chain polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation in depression: evidence from a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.” J Am Coll Nutr 28:525-542 (2009)

    6. Sato M, Adan Y, Shibata K, Shoji Y, Sato H, and Imaizumi K. “Cloning of rat delta 6-desaturase and its regulation by dietary eicosapentaenoic or docosahexaenoic acid.” World Rev Nutr Diet 88:196-199 (2001)

    7. Stillwell W and Wassall SR. “Docosahexaenoic acid: membrane properties of a unique fatty acid. Chem Phys Lipids 126:1-27 (2003)

    8. Chapkin RS, McMurray DN, Davidson LA, Patil BS, Fan YY, and Lupton JR. “Bioactive dietary long-chain fatty acids: emerging mechanisms of action.” Br J Nutr 100:1152-1157 (2008)

    9. Li Q, Wang M, Tan L, Wang C, Ma J, Li N, Li Y, Xu G, and Li J. “Docosahexaenoic acid changes lipid composition and interleukin-2 receptor signaling in membrane rafts.” J Lipid Res 46:1904-1913 (2005)

    10. Mori TA, Burke V, Puddey IB, Watts GF, O'Neal DN, Best JD, and Beilin LJ. “Purified eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids have differential effects on serum lipids and lipoproteins, LDL particle size, glucose, and insulin in mildly hyperlipidemic men.” Am J Clin Nutr 71:1085-1094 (2000)

    11. Li H, Ruan XZ, Powis SH, Fernando R, Mon WY, Wheeler DC, Moorhead JF, and Varghese Z. “EPA and DHA reduce LPS-induced inflammation responses in HK-2 cells: evidence for a PPAR-gamma-dependent mechanism.” Kidney Int 67:867-874 (2005)

    12. Serhan CN, Hong S, Gronert K, Colgan SP, Devchand PR, Mirick G, and Moussignac RL. “Resolvins: a family of bioactive products of omega-3 fatty acid transformation circuits initiated by aspirin treatment that counter proinflammation signals.” J Exp Med 1996:1025-1037
  13. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

    Messages:
    135
    Likes:
    47
    The Netherlands
    Supplement cross reactions, reactions with food, with stomach tissue, with...

    Oxalic acid, not with calcium and iron.
    Phytic acid, not with iron, magnesium and zinc.
    Some say calcium competes with magnesium for absorption.
    Zinc not with supplements containing iron, copper, manganese and calcium.
    When eating fibers, no zinc or calcium.
    Curcumin and calcium not with iron.
    Methylfolate not with iron or vit C.
    Some minerals like iron like the company of vit C.
    Some are best taken on an empty stomach, some need to be taken with food.
    Etc.
    ...
    Good heavens, setting up my weekly schedule drives me crazy every time I introduce something new.
    juniemarie and cph13 like this.
  14. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Ugh, it's more than I can deal with. I am almost done in by copper and zinc can't be taken together. Actually I have tried taking them together anyway, figuring I'd just take a higher dose copper to make up for he zinc, but a copper ad zinc combination causes instant stomach upset for me.

    I posted an article before that rye bread is better for all mineral absorption because it is low in phytic acid (unlike wheat bread).
  15. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

    Messages:
    135
    Likes:
    47
    The Netherlands
    I personally don't eat wheat bread. As a matter of fact I hardly ever eat bread, one meal every three/four weeks or so - gluten free.
    But nuts, peanuts, seeds and cocoa are also high in phytic acid. I eat nuts every day, and seeds (flax seed, sesame seed) every other day or so. Without the flax seed I get dry eyes. O and one spoon of chiaseed every day too, no idea if chiaseed's got phytic acid.
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    270
    Every time I reduce my nut servings I feel worse with less energy. I get high amounts of the minerals. I eat no grains. I think the phytate ussue is a bit overblown. Wonder if the arginine is a big deal.

    I'll ask about the epa / dha but for me his views on autoimmune diseases are basically gospel since he saved my life essentially and was instrimental in diagnosing the SPS and celiac's. To be honest I right now do better with no fish oil than taking it and that may be the epa since so high in my nordic naturals.
  17. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

    Messages:
    135
    Likes:
    47
    The Netherlands
    I hope you're right about the phytate issue. Don't know a thing about arginine. :) Will start googling immediately.
    As for the epa/dha: I certainly understand you value his view more than some unknown studies - I would. Nonetheless, and/or because you think highly of him, I'd like to know what he says about them. Thanks in advance.
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,135
    Likes:
    497
    Seattle
    I did get the Thorne Prenatal (!!!), which has lower doses, and I seem to be tolerating it okay -- maybe a little more tingly in the toes, but not certain -- lots of things can cause tingling, twitching. But I started with a third of a cap a day, and am now doing about 2/3rds...working up slowly. Haven't noticed any awkward flushing so perhaps the 'balance' is helping.

    We can of course sometimes get surprisingly sufficient amounts of some of these nutrients just from diet. I had a Spectracell test done about a year ago -- where they measure nutrient levels in white blood cells -- and my vitamin C levels were fine. I hadn't taken any C in years...so was kind of shocked. But in hindsight, I get it in a lot of foods, and I currently supplement a little off and on as well. :)

    I did get the Yasko panel, and also the methylation panel -- which showed my SAMe was a little better than the average (according to RichVank). My homocysteine was "normal", but my s-adenosylhomocysteine (sp) was HIGH. That's the more sensitve marker, which was found to be elevated in the Jill James study I've posted elsewhere, where they used TMG and folinic to bring it (and other metabolites) into the normal range.
  19. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Messages:
    702
    Likes:
    221
    Michigan
    Well I don't know. But thre is NO PROBLEM with phytates taken by themselves. It is only the meal that you eat them with that it effects. I generally munch on nuts as a snack by themselves so there would be no problem. The wheat is a problem because unless I go to great extremes there is wheat in every meal.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,378
    Likes:
    727
    Salt Lake City
    Don't forget, if iron once a day and Vitamin E 8 to 12 hours away. Iron twice a day can induce E deficiency.
    Xara likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page