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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Why? You can get DHA in caps. There are also several fish oils that have a better ratio of EPA to DHA. In wild fish, this is also normally the case. The usual fish oil ratio of 180:120 is skewed. The salmon oil I take for instance, has more DHA than EPA.
  2. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Hmm you are quite correct.

    Just saw these: http://www.drugstore.com/nordic-naturals-dha-1000-soft-gels-strawberry/qxp342798?catid=183248

    For the life of me I never thought there existed DHA heavy ones.
    My doctor wanted me taking 1000-1500 mg of DHA a day, which was a hard task without getting a ton of EPA.
    Maybe I can do a combo solution with a couple of DHA caps and the usual tspn of normal stuff for the rest.

    Thanks :)
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    You're welcome :)

    This might also be a good one to try:

    http://www.iherb.com/Nordic-Naturals-Prenatal-DHA-500-mg-180-Soft-Gels/43653
  4. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    About the differences between (and similarites in) EPA and DHA:

    Quote:
    "The only way to control cellular inflammation in the brain is to maintain high levels of EPA in the blood. This is why all the work on depression, ADHD, brain trauma, etc. have demonstrated EPA to be superior to DHA
    (...)
    if you use high-dose DHA it is essential to add back trace amounts of GLA to maintain sufficient levels of DGLA to continue to produce anti-inflammatory eicosanoids.
    (...)
    the increased spatial territory swept out by DHA is good news for making certain areas of membranes more fluid or lipoprotein particles larger
    (...)
    both are equally effective in reducing triglyceride levels
    (...)
    equal activation of the anti-inflammatory gene transcription factor PPAR-gamma
    (...)
    Both seem to be equally effective in making powerful anti-inflammatory eicosanoids known as resolvins
    (...)
    DHA can increase the size of LDL particle to a greater extent than can EPA
    (...)
    Summary
    EPA and DHA do different things, so you need them both, especially for the brain. If your goal is reducing cellular inflammation, then you probably need more EPA than DHA. How much more? Probably twice the levels, nonetheless you always cover your bets with omega-3 fatty acids by using both EPA and DHA at the same time."
    Source
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-are-the-real-differences-between-epa-and-dha
    or as tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/axytxn8

    Quote:
    "When addressing specific ailments or conditions related to inflammation, however, the ratio of EPA to DHA becomes very important and can determine the efficacy of any outcome, as their physiological actions are quite distinct.
    (...)
    it is suggested by a number of researchers that due to similarities in structure, EPA and DHA compete 1:1 for binding sites and that the DHA within a treatment regime appears to ‘block’ the therapeutic actions of EPA (Martins 2009; Bloch & Qawasmi et al, 2011; Sublette et al, 2011). In contrast, using pure ethyl-EPA has routinely been shown to increases the efficacy of a treatment regime and it is increasingly recognised that the absence [1] of DHA, and therefore absence of competition between EPA and DHA for biological sites of action, is responsible for the outcomes seen in such trials. Therefore oils containing DHA may not be suitable for the treatment of a variety of conditions and may explain the lack of efficacy with use of generic fish oils. "
    Source:
    http://igennus.com/fat-facts/epadha-ratio/
    triffid113 and UM MAN like this.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Very interesting on the interactions of the oils components. I have found, at least for me to recover to this point and maintain that, that I have to take advantage of every little thing that makes a difference. If higher proportion DHA can make a difference it it could be helpful. At a macro level of symptoms, the question comes down to what symptoms demonstrate the need and what changes when it is met? Does it make a noticable difference in other words?
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Some additional things here and there. I have found that separating my Metafolin from potassium and Vit C makes a very noticable difference. The past week I started taking the Metafolin 30 minutes before eating and taking my vitamins wth foods and other times. As I take 5 doses of potassium daily and 4 doses of Metfolin it used to be easy to take both sometimes at the same time. Now even more timing matters.

    In this week I have emerged again from a round of Paradoxical folate deficiency. It appears that some part of the problem was an absorption problem from beoing combined with Vit C and/or potassium at various times. I have not trialed the vit C seperately so all I have confirmed is potassium.

    In private communications this week a person who HAD anxiety and the extreme LCF reaction no longer has the extreme reaction, having endured the anxiety and effects and had them diminish and taking normal doses. It was a startup reaction and in several months it diminished and is no longer a problem. I'm hoping for a lot more details so maybe to figure out why and how. So the question is has this now allowed neurological healing to start, has there perhaps been a little already, or what? When people say X is "intolerable" I do understand that and have been there for any number of things. Continued Glutathione (precursors) at the dose I was taking and the other 9 were taking became intolerable to all of us. So the question is why and how?

    In private communications a quite a few people are doing very well with the Deadlock Quartet. It comes down to seeing what isn't happening and finding the next step, the next "most limiting item" or what. I found thr first 50% of healing was relatively easy. Then it was a series of steps of diminishing returns, but always looking for the things that kept it moving in that direction which can include almost anything for any specific person. It's a shame that so many people don't feel they can post Deadlock Quartet or even single item AdoCbl, MeCbl, LCF and l-methylfolate sucesses in plain sight. The interchange above on fats, learning timing things, combinations, all that which having many folks with differring knowledge bases and experiences is an example , I think, of how things can work right.
  7. pela

    pela

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    Funny you should post this because I was just thinking about how much more energy I have. In addition to some light weight lifting, I have been jogging with no sign of exercise intolerance. I am coming up on 10 months of MB12, ADB12 and folate. A year ago if I tried jogging I would be floored for the rest of the day and maybe the next day,too. So thanks, Freddd.

    Do you find that there are people who don't need LCF? I take it about 3 times a week and really don't notice much, whereas the other three (MB12, ADB12 and folate) were earth-shaking.
    howirecovered likes this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pela,

    In my experience so far, a sizable number don't find any difference with LCF or any other form of carnitine. The only way is to do a number of trials with each LCF and ALCAR and who knows what other forms might work. I'm preparing a post with all the things affected by carnitine for some people who need it and myself. In the AdoCbl, LCF chain there are also biotin and d-ribose., and no doubt a few more. When I took carnitne, my capacity for arobic exercise literally doubled overnight. It made more difference for me, energetically, than any other substance. It also reveresed my muscular atrophy. Both biotin and D-ribose can occasionally set it off in a big way.

    My biggest caution is don't overdo. I increased distance by 50 feet a day. That is about mile in 3 months. I got up to 5 miles that way without overdoing it.

    It sounds like you have had huge success in 10 months. That was also the point that I could start physical rehab. That was also wen my exercise intolerance went away, about a month after starting AdoCbl. Not noticing much is differrent than not noticing anything at all.

    Now figure out what symptoms have been missed in all this improvement and see if some adjustments muight be made. Be in good health.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    Bursitis
    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    dyspepsia
    flatulence
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 contining foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittant diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    anorexia
    Bullimia
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symtoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet disfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hypersegmented neutrophils
    headaches
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    asthma
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrheic dermatitis
    dandruff
    eczema
    dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores


    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is how the whole thing started. With your comment:
    So ATP startup in the brain, completely unsuspected by Rich, is thereby interpeted as any numbers of other things but NEVER ATP startup. That was an impossible answer in his mind prior to the discussion maybe a year ago and he never showed any expressed difference that I am aware of. That changes how things are interpreted. When the assumptions are wrong the inerpretations are wrong.
    Then you posted dbkita's comments from another thread about Rich being wrong 4 times in this thread.
    Again my comments were to SUPPORT your side of the argument you had with Rich Vank in that brain mitochondria are directly relevant to neuronal health.
    Your comment in the original thread was in response to NOTHING in that thread. Even if the thread was about carnitine and ATP to bring up Rich's position was completely unnecessary. And then you do it again in this thread. If you are responding to an actual quote be Rich or someone supporting Rich's position that's completely different. I could care less if you disagree with Rich. You went out of your way to say Rich was wrong about your theory, but then you suggest this:
    Rich was out to “prove” his theory.
    I find this last statement very insulting especially after all you've done to prove your theory
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't think it gets any more clear than this
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291415
    With regard to the effect of methylB12 on nerve-related problems, I don't think the mechanism (or mechanisms) are agreed upon. Fundamentally, methylB12 and adenosylB12 are the only known active forms of B12 in humans. MethylB12 is a coenzyme for the methylation cycle, and adenosylB12 is a coenzyme in the mitochondria. So it would seem that either or both of these is involved. Assisting the mitochondria will raise ATP production, which is very important for powering the membrane ion pumps in neurons. Assisting methylation will help to repair the myelin on the axons, for one thing. Maybe those are involved.

    Best regards, Rich
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I just checked with my neuroendocrinologist via email, he said for his patients with autoimmune diseases especially in the CNS that he wants a very high ratio of DHA to EPA. Like as in 10:1. I will have to ask him why next appt.

    He mentioned that EPA can exacerbate the autoimmune response. Might explain the fatigue on high doses of regular fish oil
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Lotus,

    You take it out of context. I said he was wrong about a number of specific things. I have NOT saidf that partial methylation block is wrong. I disagree about HyCbl, that glutathione lack CAUSES these diseases, lack of glutathione is result of the methylation blockage You make all sorts of wild accusations that you invent and then when I dissagree you yank it out of context and do it again.

    What kind of weird game are you playing here?
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    A few people I have run into have had an intense energy/mood change from oils, srimulating too much.. It was different with different oils. That was 5 or 6 years ago and no real conclusions were were reached of which I am aware.
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    For me separation from vitamin C made a BIG difference. Ascorbic acid 2 grams simultaneous was a big problem. There was a noticeable improvement going to 2 grams of buffered mineral ascorbate. Another improvement when going away from vitamin C altogether (though the jump from ascorbic acid to mineral ascorbate was more critical).

    The potassium may depend on what form of potassium you aupplement. Food has lots of potassium in it, but all bound up in various forms.

    I wonder if there are absorption benefits to taking with no food at all. Has that been answered one way or the other?
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    Folate, of all sorts, appears to be absorbed very welll with or without food. It has excellent oral avaiality by what I've read during the years. I find them about the same except now I take the folate all without food, 30 minutes before food. It's just one more inconvienient thing after another. I would hate to have to take 100 different pills a day all at different times in specifc orders. Yikes. I take 6 grams of ascorbic acid with bioflavinoids one a day as I don't reliably eat two meals.
  18. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood.

    But yeah I noticed big effects moving 2 grams of ascorbic acid away (like 30 minute lag time). I can imagine 6 grams could really interfere with simultaneous ingestion.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Yes, and making it even worse, I was taking potassium on wake and bedtime with my Metafolin at the same time. I wonder if the regular 2 `week cycle will disappear. Wouldn't that be nice.
  20. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Interesting about the EPA shutting down HPA. I have noticed that 9g of fish oil can fix my allergies but that not all; fish oil works for me (at least at that dose) and figured it had something to do with EPA:DHA ratio. Unfortunately the first brand I found that works is a cheap brand that does not specify the ratio and I have not wanted to waste a lot of money trying other brands to see what the necessary ratio is.

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