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The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by AFCFS, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    Thought this article and associated research were interesting.
     
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  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    My dopamine levels were normal, and I don't have a problem with "slacking off". More of the opposite - I tend to overdo things, if I'm not very careful.
     
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  3. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    How did you have them tested?
     
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Blood platelet levels.
     
  5. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    Another take, Slacker or Go-Getter? Brain Chemical May Tell, says:
    It eems that urine and blood tests may pick up high levels - What are Abnormal Dopamine Levels?, but think the study is more indicative of brain levels that may spike in one area of the brain vs another.

    Here is the whole article:
     
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  6. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    This is interesting but perhaps a moderator could move this to the "other health news" section and out of the "symptoms" sections. Articles where the main subjects of the study were not ME/CFS sufferers should I think be carefully separated from those that are about ME/CFS symptoms and studies. Thanks anyway!
     
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  7. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    AFCFS
    I'm surprised students were able to get into Vanderbilt University and be slackers. It is considered kind of a prestigious school.

    Also, I wonder how many of the designated slacker squad would act that way if they were doing something they truly enjoyed. In the case of college students, that means playing video games *sigh*. I mean for today's youth, $4 doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.
     
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  8. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    I don't have any problem where it goes, but think it is as valid a symptom as any others that are posted under symptoms. When did alcohol intolerance, night sweats, or decreased stool transit time become CFS symptoms? They may all point to symptioms that may or may not be related to CFS; each can also be found in many other illnesses not specific to CFS, which is one reason CFS has been difficult to Dx and to treat. So, in that view, I believe the research is well placed.

    In addition, many symptoms are expressed as singular elements, but are actually multifaceted. Many seem to despise the use of the word "Fatigue" in CFS, as it is either not comprehensive, not specific, or not indicative enough of "what is being experienced." For myself, I would say that "Fatigue" is a multifaceted word and includes the very notion of motivation. Until a specific cause or delineated etiology for CFS is found and agreed upon, linguistic specificity may be more of a hindrance to CFS than a boon.

    - For all we know, dopamine imbalance, spikes, peaks, highs, or lows, could be the defining factor of CFS in 10 years, to think otherwise is to limit perspective on possible treatments and cure.
     
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  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Those others ARE known ME/CFS symptoms.. where as slackness sure isnt and that inference is quite offensive to many of us due to just how slack we knew we arent. If anything most of those who get ME/CFS were anything other then slackers as its the pushing of ourselves which lead to many not getting worst or stopped us from getting better. Many of us were overachievers and we tend to over do things if we arent watching ourselves closely to make sure we carefully pace and ease up like we NEED to do.

    Alcohol Intollerence was almost made part of one of the CFS diagnostic criteria as there was much serious consideration around it and that (my memory isnt great but it may of been the canadian consensus defintion it almost got into). It is a well known fact that many ME patients get night sweats (often part of the virally ME symptoms which is quite a classical presentation) and IBS is a well known part of this illness too.. many of us have IBS-C with it (which slows down stool transit).


    This illness thou dont change personality in the way of if a person was a slacker before they got this illness, they are bound to be just as much of a slacker with it. This wouldnt mean that then their slackness is part of this illness.
     
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  10. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    I think this is a very shoddy study if its meant to show what slackers dopamine levels are like.

    It could well be that those who are into serious stuff like working hard arent into gambling or computer like games so much, where a button needs to be pressed for a reward. (that's a mindless activity many slackers may enjoy), a "slacker" (someone who was into sitting in a pub all day playing gambling games) may more so enjoy. Maybe the work challenge would show something completely different if an activity, which may not be attractive to just one of the groups was used in the test (eg copying out letters or something..for no rewards).

    There are much better ways to find out the colleration? corration?? (what's that word) between dopamine and hard work and attitudes towards hard work which wouldnt be maybe an indication of dopamine and gambling and computer games..

    All they'd have to do is to compare the dopamine levels of those who were on the dole due to not being interested in getting a job (or those who kept knocking back jobs) to those who were hard working people with very busy jobs.
     
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  11. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    Where? To whom? - not anecdotally - but where are they (all) in an accepted medical reference list?
    I also was never known as having slacknees - until I got CFS. That is why it is interesting to me, as I try to search for a reason - for that part of the puzzle.
    It is also well known that many cancer patients get night sweats... Has it been proven that ME is viral? Does everyone with CFS present with IBS?
    Dopamine has a right to change in a CFS person just as much as viral state, or whatver causes IBS.

    - ultimately "we do not know, what we do not know"
     
  12. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

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    This was my thought as well. How can you say this measures laziness?
    If I was a student doing this, I'd be deciding how difficult a task to do based on maximizing profit. You want to do the tasks with the highest dollar reward BUT only if you think you can accomplish it. Don't do it, or get it wrong ... no money. (I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that if you messed up, you wouldn't get your reward for that task.) They were 30 second tasks so not a lot of time to think. It would depend on your skill level at whatever it was. If you weren't so good at it, you would make more money by choosing easier tasks. That isn't lazy, it's smart!!

    How about this for a laziness test? After a snowstorm, get a group of people out to shovel sidewalks for a set period of time (for free). See how much each person does. That will separate the go-getters from the slackers! :D
     
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  13. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Ailleen that snow challenge would be a great way to study hardworkers and slackers esp if they only knew they were in a study but didnt know at all what was being studied.. then test the dopamine levels after and see levels of slackers and the hardworkers. (hardworkers would also be more likely to be fitter due to more motivation then slackers.. so would find a snow challenge easier).

    One really wonders why money is spend on such stupid obviously not thought out much studies. I think most the psych studies done are done in such a way in which they are planned so to prove whatever the person doing the study is wanting to try to prove..
     
  14. Tally

    Tally Senior Member

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    What makes you think you have slackness now?

    I can't help but feel that if you want to call us slackers you have to also call a man with no legs a slacker - after all, he never wants to run, or even take a walk! :p
     
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  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    85% of Phoenix Rising members responding to the poll in this same subforum. You posted on it a few days ago.

    There's often a big difference between the reality we face and the perception of it by others. The answer for most of us is that we weren't slackers before we got sick, and we still aren't now. The difference in our activity levels is solely attributable to our illness.
     
  16. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Ive noticed that some who get ME/CFS end up with warped views of themselves which can happen for a couple of different reasons eg others constantly telling the person they are being slack and doctors telling the person they arent really sick can end up making a person end up convincing themselves that they must be being slack.

    My sister has this perception issue at times too.. calling herself slack when its rather its cause she's just too sick stopping her from doing things. My sister has a lot of denial of her own illness going on (at this point she's not even willing to believe she has ME/CFS)..and telling others she was being slack is just another excuse she uses both to herself and to others, rather then face that she's actually sick and the truth of her situation...this being, that she just isnt able to do all the things she wants to any more.

    Others may be just being far too hard on themselves and having over the top, completely unrealistic expectations on themselves while they are ill so start thinking they are being slack.

    That is the kind of area that a "good" psychologist for ME/CFS (unfortunately these are far and few between) can help with.. making the person aware that they truely arent being "slackers' (false perception) but rather just not doing as much as they used to, due to just being sick and ones body screaming at one to stop.

    AFCFS ..Do you have ME/CFS? Do you think you are slack? Did you "percieve" yourself as slack before you got this illness? Im very curious where your perception of ME/CFS people being slackers and that this is a symptom of this illness is coming from..
     
  17. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    The study had N = 25 which basically means nothing. The study was not studying people with ME or any other illness therefore has nothing to do with ill people.

    What is up with the title of this thread -- "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?"

    Would somebody with Cancer appreciate "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has do with Cancer?"

    As for the title -- "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?" -- my answer -- Nothing!!!

    I am not a slacker. Never have been, never will be.

    Definition of slacker by the way is:

    A person who avoids work or effort.
    A person who evades military service.

    Synonyms:

    idler - sluggard - loafer - lazybones

    So really, how much of being an idler, sluggard, loafer, lazybones has to do with 'CFS'. Nothing, unless you happen to be a psychiatrist.

    Kina.
     
  18. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

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    Yes, I was diagnosed with CFS. Yes, I think I am slack - not the way I ever used to be. I look back, from now being bedridden, and see what I once was. I had been a CEO of a start-up corporation. I had completed 3 years of graduate school in 2 years, while working full time and doing emergency volunteer work for the Red Cross. I used to teach martial arts, and be competitive athletically. I used to travel and have a love of the remote outdoors - I enjoyed hiking, backpacking, canyoneering, rappelling, mountain bike riding. Even as life had changed my motivations and I no longer wanted the immediacy of the business world, I continued to be active in my community and sought to pursue another graduate degree in that capacity.

    Then: No motivation. I tried to get up one morning - not only did I feel I could not, I did not want to - as though I had walked 1000 miles only to get run over by a train. My motivation was not what it once was, even a few days before. I now seem to have a lack of motivation, and also never considered myself a slacker, but now feel like one.

    CFS - an illness essentially defined by exclusion of other possible illnesses.There are a handful of symptoms that are not well agreed upon. They seem to manifest in various ways - and are perceived in various ways - by various individuals. I perceive my lack of motivation as being like a slacker inside. Apparently CFS itself can sap one of desire, even desire most fundamental to our being. I consider it part and parcel of the illness and do not take it as negative connotation in that context.

    No motivation - why? Is it that big of deal to ask why, and form novel ideas, given the absence of definition in the illness? And with no definitive answer to flirt with all who may present a question not previously asked, if not an answer? I think not.

    I find the fiddling with words and and attempting to find proper analogies to relay to others to be daunting. I recall more than once, seeing a doctor and reporting that I had "cognitive clouding," which they did not seem to understand until I qualified the statement by saying, "it is like brain fog" - for whatever reason they did not understand the former but did understood the latter.

    So, if going to a doc and I say, "I feel unmotivated," and get a blank look, maybe I can appeal that look by saying "kind of like a slacker - not myself - wonder if dopamine has anything to do with it." Maybe I will come closer to touching on their medical knowledge.
    What's up with the title? It is question - based on my personal experience. Thank you for your answer. "Nothing!!!" - being an answer, even though I infer it to be rather callous in that it seems to delegitimize my experience, at least as an answer it surely validates the question.

    And yes, I avoid work or effort - like the plague, as it seems to compromise an already fragile system, even though this was not once the case. I am not motivated to do what I once did. I feel like a slacker, that I do not recognize - and I wonder why?

    - I apologize if use of the word has offended anyone, but I will never apologize for my subjective experience.
     
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  19. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    My answer of 'nothing' was not 'callous' -- being a slacker has nothing to do with ME/CFS. The use of the word
    slacker 'delegitmizes' my experience of illness because being referred to as a 'slacker' or an idler, sluggard. loafer, or lazybones is insulting. I used to be a R.N. and I can tell you if I even suggested my patients dying of Cancer or who were ill with MS or liver disease were 'slackers', I likely would have been fired. Slacker is not in my vocabulary and it never will be.

    If you think some kind of dopamine imbalance causes symptoms in 'CFS' why involve a label that has such negative connotations. We don't describe people with Parkinson's Disease (dopamine related) as slackers and unmotivated. This kind of thing doesn't do us any good. Let's see 'slackers' are often associated with fakers trying to get a free ride from the government. Lack of motivation is often associated with depression. I personally think it is 'callous' to call any ill person a slacker. If people can't work or function because they are ill, it's because they are too sick to work or function, not because they are a slacker. Slacker is a word that should NOT be associated with illness. Therefore, the answer for - 'The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?' is again - nothing, and that's my subjective experience.
     
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  20. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    thanks for sharing so much personal stuff about yourself.. its helped us to see where you are coming from. The term did 'grate" on many of us as many who dont understand how sick we are, do think we are slackers and nearly all of us are aware we arent.

    If a person had a sprained ankle.. would it be right to consider them being slack if they didnt then want to walk on the sprained injured foot which was in truth needing to be rested?

    That is currently what you are trying to do to yourself.. blaming yourself like a person who has got a very real foot injury unrealistically may do, if he wasnt willing to walk on it and percieving his situation to be in a certain way.

    Its good that you do have awareness there of that.

    Ask yourself seeing you do have that awareness that doing activities is compromising your fragile system.. ask yourself why you are choosing still to use such negative wording eg "slacker" for yourself. Ask yourself if it may be cause you struggling to accept your illness?

    I think us high achievers have even more trouble at times accepting illness then the rest of the population do.., way overly hard on ourselves at times. So many concepts need to be changed on what makes us good or bad people, high achievers may judge people and ourselves on our achievements.. Possibly you are still seeing your self worth still in how much you can and achieve by amounts achieved and how high the achievement is in the eyes of others.. rather then viewing achievement in the challenge of the achievement itself. eg how hard it really was for you. If one struggles to get out of bed in the morning and it is difficult doing the dishes.. achieving that is actually a high achievement when one is sick. Just walking to the loo may be an achievement!!!

    Your "lack of motivation" is probably your body telling you it needs to take things easier and needs to rest. I see much of the lack of motivation in this illness as a self defence thing to help actually protect the person .. your subconciousness knows what is good and bad for you.

    With some of cause lack of motivation may be depression.. if someone is actually depressed, they should be treated for that symptom but for many of us its just case of body and ourselves, knowing we need to protect our fragile systems and NEEDING to take things easy.

    Think of someone sick in bed with flu.. do they often "feel" like making themselves and get up and go to work while very sick with flu? No.. most quite sick in flu will be WANTING to stay in bed and rest even the highly motivated personality ones. Why are you viewing this sickness you have now.. different to if you were very sick with something else (Im not wanting an answer but that is something I think may be worth thinking over).

    I think its usually depression not ME/CFS itself which takes away peoples true desires. Eg ask a non depressed ME person what they would love to do if they could and werent sick.. they'd share with you the same dreams and desires they had before the illness. They havent lost the desire for things... whereas someone with coexisting depression may answer they dont have anything they'd like to be doing if they could or just give an "I dont know" .

    Take care on what words u use to a doctor.. calling yourself a slacker may give him the opinion that you think you arent trying with things at all and may make him think you are exaggerating your illness.
     

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