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The shot gun approach- mitochondrial/ methylation/ antoxidants

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by heapsreal, May 29, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Alex from here used a shot gun approach a few years ago and had some success, but used a few different supps, i think from memory and had some side effects.

    I dont think this is really going to cost too much when buying from iherb, maybe abit of an initial outlay but most supps will last 2-3 months , approx $30 a month maybe, under estimate. I will already be using other supps and most of us taking a heap and i already take some of this and many overlap with what im trying to accomplish.

    Here goes a big list, sort of break it down to mito/methylation/antioxidant:
    MITO- ribose/creatine, q10, acetly l carnitine, NAD, magnesium
    MEHTYLATION BLOCK(bascis)- methyl b12, methylfolate.
    ANTIOXIDANTS- NAC, vit E, Vit C, Alpha lipoic acid.

    Now im not going to take them all at once but slowly add them every few days and judge the effects. I suppose i will rattle when i walk too. I will still be using antivirals, sleep meds and a few other things.

    Now there are a few cfs/me studies showing increased oxidative stress, low glutathione levels, low q10 and carnitine. These sort of tests here in australia are dam expensive, it would be nice to be able get these pre and post 'shot gun' but money only gos so far.

    In another post i have mentioned i have used most of these supps in some way but not to this extent. Im also in a different state of improved health sinse then with lower viral load, sinuses sort of controlled and healthy dhea levels.

    I would appreciate anyone elses experience with doing shot gun approach similar to this and also if they had testing done before and after and noticed lab improvements and symptom improvements.

    It might be awhile before i really get started with this but will try and keep updates going when i can.

    I have gone from a lerner scale of a 3 out of 10 to a 6-7 out of 10 with antivirals/immune/infectious treatments but can drop down with a crappy sleep pattern or PEM etc, you know how it is. SO what im trying to achieve is a 9 or a 10 level. At the moment my symptoms are ok if i do little out side my full time work but if i go outside that im knackered. I know many would just like to work fulltime and im greatful for that but its still not a life and u dont know how long u can maintain this either, always on the lookout for a crash.

    As of now on all the antioxidants, AL Carnitine, q10.

    appreciate any feedback,

    cheers!!!
    Allyson likes this.
  2. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps

    I was on all of these, except NAC, and some other things (eg alpha-keto something or other, niacinamide, selenium) for 8 months last year. No change in any symptoms.

    Jenny
    heapsreal likes this.
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I would add several herbal antioxidants as well, and consider some aminos unless you are on a high protein diet. I did get some success with this in 1998-9 until the side effects hit me. The aminos included glycine and alanine, both of which are shown to improve hypoxia tolerance in a lab - but not necessarily in people. I also had I think siberian ginseng and pycnogenol (not grape seed but the original grape product from France - later bark products are not as good I think). These days pycnogenol can be hard to get, but resverotrol isn't.I would also consider a good B complex.

    The point of a shot gun approach, to me back then, was that antioxidants are networks. No single one is responsible. Rather than take high doses of one, or several, I thought (and still think) that for antioxidants lower doses of a wide range is a better idea. You cover different tissues and free radical distributions and types, and you maximize antioxidant interactions. By supplementing every step of a supply chain you make sure its working. Something similar applies in the methylation cycle protocols these days, though not directly antioxidants.Supplement the target network, not just one step.

    Another supplement I was trying back then was chromium picolinate. It did increase my energy slightly, but not more than that.There were a host of others I tried but did not adopt, things like (?) vanadium sulphate which was popular with bodybuilders at the time. One I used intermittently was fish oil. Additional minerals were zinc and selenium, again at low doses.

    What kind of effects did I get: restoration of energy without reduction in fatigue. I felt like hell but had as much energy as I needed, without PEM. The side effect that eventually hit me, after a week or two of high energy and aside from cost (it was more than I could afford) were intense daily headaches that painkillers couldn't touch. I was forced to give it up, and at the time nobody could tell me how to fix the side effects - nobody had a clue, and I asked several notable people as well as posting about it on some private forums.

    This was the protocol that got me to the 1999 Sydney CFS conference. I was walking up to five hours per day at that time - until the headaches hit. Plus attending the conference of course.

    Bye, Alex
    Allyson and heapsreal like this.
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Just put my supp order in, doing my bit to make iherb wealthier, maybe me healthier :)
    Ribose, NAD, magnesium glycinate/lysinate, folate metafolin, methyl b12 5000.

    I will add the magnesium, folate and b12 straight away. later add the ribose and few days later try the nad with it.
    Supps im already on - vit e/c, NAC, lipoic acid, acetyl l carnitine, q10, epo, dhea, melatonin.

    I will give this a run for awhile, also keen to try undcrv advice of high dose EGCG(green tea extract). resverotrol also on my to try list sometime.

    cheers!!!
    Allyson likes this.
  5. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    You know how long my list is! I take many antioxidents, immune builders, hormones, mito supplements etc. Everything works together. I also eat very healthful food. This has all been amazing for my CFS. I am only dealing with POTS now.
    I take most of what you have listed and much more.
    heapsreal likes this.
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hi Sally,

    Thanks for the reply, if they made a pill with everything in it, it would be the size of a basket ball, lol.

    i have taken these before probably not all at the same time, but i think im now in a different position for these supplements to help me more now after being on antivirals and lowering viral load etc. I think Rich has mention that his methylation protocol probably works better if it is used in combination of going after what infections are an issue. I think i previously didnt get alot out of my supps because i think these viruses were causing too many problems, im hoping its a different game now.

    My only bad symptom is sleep which can bring everything down, but if i sleep well and dont over do things then im functioning ok. Now im just going to add and take away what im going to find helpful or not, try not to break the budget. Functional medicine testing here is expensive, so im going to go by feel and maybe after awhile i will get a few things tested and see how these supps are helping.

    cheers!!!
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Sally your supp protocol is the A bomb, isnt it?? lol.

    cheers!!!
    Sallysblooms likes this.
  8. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Good luck with it Heaps, hope it helps!
    heapsreal likes this.
  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    best luck with it.
  10. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps - this approach reminds me of Dr Myhills protocol - throw everything at all the awry systems at once and see what comes out. I think a lot of people are helped by her approach (i know others arent)
    I have a massive list of supplements from her for all the things you mention above.
    Supps for mitos
    supps for antioxidant support,
    supps for methylation (she only suggests MB12 injections)
    general supps for all which includes B complex, Minerals, Vitc and multi mineral.

    I cant afford to take all her supps, also i found that i had to improve enough to tolerate a lot of them. But now i have had some gains i am better able to tolerate more of them and have added a few in.

    I take:
    MB12 300mcg sub cutaneous injection perday - this has been my bioggest helper, as not only is my Glutathione low, but my antioxidant status is terrible and it gives immediate antioxidant cover - i think the injections are the best - sublinguals did nothing for me. (i have injected now for over 6 months and the effects are slow but cumulative)
    Vit C
    Co Q10 - i take 100mg, was supposed to take 300 but cant tolerate.
    Magnesium 300mg a day - my other favourite supplement.
    A herbal tincture from a medical herbalist - we have been working together for 3 years - i highly recommend it. We have worked on immune system, nervous system and now focusing on adrenals and immune
    Herbs for hormonal health (as above)
    Transdermal mineral spray - it is very important that you add minerals. Manganese and selenium are especially important for mito and antioxidant health. I wasnt absorbing threm throuhg the gut, so the spray has been good.

    Others i am supposed to take, but still cant tolerate or havent got round to:
    VEGEPA - tried it - expensive, no noticeable effect after over a year.
    multivitamin - (most have yeast, not good for me)
    Vitamin D3 -(is in my mineral spray so no longer take seperately)
    Acetyl l carnitine - very low on this but its one i cant seem to tolerate.
    coconut oil - made me gain even more weight at an alarming rate (told this wouldnt happen)
    lecithin - just havent tried
    niacinamide 500mg - have got in the cupboard, havent tried.
    D Ribose - as this is a type of sugar and i have had severe systemic candida i have steared clear for now.
    L Glutathione - have tried - keep getting confused about conflicting advise on here about wehter to take or not
    Multi B - most have too much B6 - as i had a severe reaction to an SSRI i have to be careful with B6
    B2 - i keep trying but keep having side effects.

    Well this is what Dr M wants me to take! But i am doing ok so far on what i cherry picked from the list.
    Thanks Heaps for bringing this all up - o think i might try and push it a bit with some of the supps ni have bought but not taken. See what happens!
    Good luck to you, Justy.
    Allyson likes this.
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hi Justy,

    Yes researching into this, dr myhills name popped up alot. Its encouraging to hear others have improved as well as your self tolerating these better once u have improved some, i think this is my situation too. Keep us updated on your new trials. If i was to buy these supps in australia i think they would cost me 3-4 times as much as i pay from iherb, thank god for the internet, what did cfsers do before then??

    Picking up some scripts at the chemist today and i bought some cheap glucosamine sulphate to help with my back and noticed some cheap creatine which i grapped, so i have added this. I really hoping this mito type supps help with recovery etc. Today i did a very short walk on the treadmill and some light weight training/back rehab type stuff, no pem no pem, please!!!

    I think i had some extra energy today as i only had a few hours sleep and was awake at 130am and was just going to ride it out until the next night but by 430am my head was about to explode, so i said bugger it(or words to that effect) and took another sleeping pill and zonked out for a much needed 4 1/2hrs sleep, gee it makes such a difference to get some sleep. Zopiclone is my best sleep med so i save it for when i have to go to work the next day, zopiclone night tonight, bugger.

    It seems the methylation type supps help many with neuro type symptoms, im hoping this helps with fixing my sleep issues. I think just have more energy from the mito supps may help sleep also(hoping) as i know the more tired/fatigued i get the harder it is for me to sleep. Its a back to front type of theory but i think most cfsers can undestand it.

    thanks for the well wishes Tania and Adster.

    cheers!!!
  12. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    If you want to know the shotgun approach, you should look in my room and supplement cabinet, lol. Must be god damn near 1000$ worth of supplements. Oh how I wish the cause of my CFS was a mitochondrial problem. God knows I must have the strongest mitochondria alive after all of the supplements I have given them. None of them personally worked for me in the slightest bit whatsoever though.
    Allyson likes this.
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    xks, i think its also the horse and the cart thing too, my thinking and the way i have mostly headed was treating the infectious immune stuff first which has helped to a certain degree and now stalled. now im going after those little mitochondria and kicking the lazy buggers in the guts to get working, well i hope it works. I look at antioxidants as a way of reducing the damage from this illness and i have used these from day dot, there are other things they do??

    I think partly why we feel fatigued is a protective mechanism, so we stop and rest while our immune system tries to fight the invasion. I think if we increase our enrgy output into other activities while we are sick it just drains our reservse from our immune system. We have all done the push crash badly in the beginning and i like that saying whipping a dead horse, as i think thats literally what happens with stimulants and maybe not as bad with mito supps when used at the wrong time, but i think u get my drift. Im hoping some of this mito energy improves my immune system, also as i get more active then its less of a strain for my body to generate the energy, lastly i hope it improves post exertional malaise. How could i forget, i want to be able to sleep, that would be awesome.

    My approach will probably turn into a double barrel machine gun shot gun approach if i do too much reading into this, lol. every dam supp helps something??? lets see what these ones do??

    cheers!!!
  14. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Right now I'm on a soil based organisms kick. We will see how long that kick lasts. Hence why I posted the poll in general treatment regarding prior to CFS antibiotic use. Garden of Life has a product out but it is crap IMO because it doesn't contain SBOs really just lactobacillus crap anymore.

    The reason I say I Don't think it's a mitochondria problem with me is I have used some very powerful agents that would improve the mitochondria much more than a measly supplement. Beta agonists and hormones namely...and saw no lasting results with that therapy.

    It is amazing how a cytokine generated when the body has an infection can make you feel bed ridden. Everyone before CFS had that feeling before probably when they got sick. So I have no problem believing that in CFS when someone has a chronic infection the symptoms are replicated, granted to a longer extent. And there may be some that claim no gut problem or infection to which I commend you for being you.
  15. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps - yep the whole too tired to sleep thing has been a big issue for me in the past. Luckily mainly gone now and i sleep well. BUT if i stay up even half an hour too late i get all wired and cant shut down enough. (been having the same problem after S- E- X recently - but thats another story - now i have the energy for it but it keeps me awake. BAHHH!!!)

    Added in the L Glutathione in my cupboard today and going to try the Nicotinamide soon as well. (i'm also back on anti candida supps so i really will be rattling)

    It does seem strange that some supps can only be tolerated once we start to improve. I feel like i'm reaching a critical mass where good health and recovery comes more quickly the better i feel. I am still getting PEM - but the goalposts have moved further out before it hits.

    Good luck, Justy.x
  16. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    The whole mitochondria deficiency thing is really a sick joke told by specialists and supplement companies to get you thinking that you need to buy pro-mitochondria supplements, expensive tests, and their mitochondrial expertise. The mitochondria are regenerated something like every 20 days and if you really had a defective problem in them they would be regenerated but obviously something is hampering their function, not the other way around.
  17. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    It is for me Heaps! :)
    heapsreal likes this.
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    3 days ago i did a very short work out, a walk on the tread mill and some lower back rehab exercises. No pem although shins were abit sore probably deconditioning, also suprised as i have had a cold put sort of functioning like a normal person does with a cold, my sleep has been abit ratty. So i have been using creatine for a few days now, dont know if that has helped with reducing any pem. Still waiting on my supp order to arrive, interested to see how the ribose and NAD go with adding some spark. ABout to do a small 'workout' again like the other day, short work and back rehab stuff.

    cheers!!!
    Allyson likes this.
  19. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    how did u chose your supps? my dr wants me to start d-ribose but i have no idea what makes a good supp and a bad supp (non-effective) ? how does one choose a brand? always wondered why high price for some supps, what do they hav in them that lower priced supps dont.
    Allyson likes this.
  20. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Supps i have chosen are from my own research and finding what other cfs docs have used as well as sports science as they are very much into finding ways to improve peak performance etc. Really for me its a guess and trial and error.
    As for what brands, trial and error again but also you get a feel for quality products from what others have found helpful, people here on PR use alot of supps so its a good place to find out what brands they use.

    I dont think one supp is going to be a miracle but in a combination and with other treatments like going after infections and treating adrenal hormones etc i think can bring noticeable improvement.

    I havent started ribose yet, but i have ordered Dr's best from iherb, i have used other 'drs best' products and they seem good to me and there well priced. All i can say is give it a try and see how u feel, if u get 1-2% maybe more out of it, maybe u can add something else to it and slowly increase your ability to function better, what you can afford also comes into it as well, if it seems to do nothing after a few weeks then move on, sometimes though adding these things in further down the tracks once other issues are sorted you may find these things can then help.

    Its all trial and error and an educational guess. Some research behind some things eg low carnitine levels in cfs patients, increased oxidative stress etc etc.

    cheers!!!
    Allyson likes this.

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