The sexist reality of being a woman with ME

[Valentijn]

The way the gender earnings gap is presented, ie women get paid 30% less for the same work. It's just not true, and I believe more people are having the same experience as me.

Even if the pay gap is not that high (it varies depending on the methodology and sample), it's consistently found that there is a significant pay gap. Recent studies are showing 8-12% pay gap which cannot be explained by other factors. I'd argue that even that lesser amount of inequity is unacceptable

And then some of the explained factors include things like taking maternity leave, which isn't exactly optional, especially when men aren't given parental leave. That adds to the gap.

 

[sb4]

Even if the pay gap is not that high (it varies depending on the methodology and sample), it's consistently found that there is a significant pay gap. Recent studies are showing 8-12% pay gap which cannot be explained by other factors. I'd argue that even that lesser amount of inequity is unacceptable

And then some of the explained factors include things like taking maternity leave, which isn't exactly optional, especially when men aren't given parental leave. That adds to the gap.

Hmmm, I remember it being 8-2% unexplained (could be sexism could be unknown factors).

That aside the solution feminist MPs are putting forward all seem to be regressive and actually sexist (gender quotas, gender grants).

Men and women are physically and mentally different, expecting 50% in all jobs is absurd. 70%(?) of women are biologist and I don't want to see that "gap" closed.

If a solution is presented for things that are proven sexist that isn't sexist itself I would get behind it.

>And then some of the explained factors include things like taking maternity leave, which isn't exactly optional, especially when men aren't given parental leave.

This is a big contributer however what would you do to solve it. Women are the only ones who can give birth and therefore take a couple months hit off work.

 

[TiredSam]

While we're being nice, can I just publicly compliment TiredSam on his unfailing devotion to sarcasm and satire, on many threads of this forum.

Way to go Sam, your posts are a beacon of amusement for this sarky Brit unfortunately hobbled by brainfog.
OTH

Hear hear! And he does it soooooo very politely

Well gosh thanks chaps

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Parents who chose to care for their child as a full time "career" and it damn well is one, should be supported by society, be they male or female
Bringing up kids right, instead of throwing them out into the System instead of letting them learn to be Human Beings is part of the reason for so much mental health and other problems

Try getting a greedy sociopath to support making "parent" a profession though
Think about it a minute....

 

[Woolie]

So disappointed. The new arguments in this thread are so much less outrageous than those of @ash0787. I guess ash conceded the debate. Oh well, men do get so emotional about these things don't they? (This is a joke! )

There are some situations where men get a rough time, mostly when it comes to parenting rights. I'd like to see this change. And I am sympathetic to some of the things people have said about how lobby groups sometimes exaggerate issues. But lobby groups tend to do this, whatever their cause.

What many men don't get to see is the patronising look in some people's eyes when they talk to a woman (I'm a woman). The assumptions they make, the implicit downgrading of this person's import. Especially doctors. I think men who are part of minority groups or from a low class background might see a version of this, but not your average well educated white male.

As for identifying as a "feminist", that doesn't make a lot of sense to me any more. If it means you think women should have equal rights to men in all situations, then who here would say they aren't one? Why do we need a word for this any more? Surely those who don't believe women should have equal rights are the ones that need a word applied to them, not the rest of us?

Besides, the term "feminist" implies that women's rights are the only thing one wants to protect and promote. Where does that leave all the other people in the world who have to eat a lot of shit ? Like those from low class backgrounds, who are often patronised and told what to do and generally not respected, the mentally ill (same sort of thing), racial, cultural or religious minorities. None of its okay.

I do think the male-female ratio in MECFS has hurt both men and women with the disease. It has allowed psychological theories to blossom unchecked. Okay, psyc theories also abound in GWI. But I think in GWI, there's not quite so much public eye rolling at the mere mention of the name. You can thank us women for that part, guys.

 

[Kalliope]

What many men don't get to see is the patronising look in some people's eyes when they talk to a woman (I'm a woman). The assumptions they make, the implicit downgrading of this person's import

That made me think of this interview with Dustin Hoffman about when he was working on his character in the movie Tootsie. I think he explains it so well and it is moving to see his reaction when he talks about being on the receiving end of this.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Even if the pay gap is not that high (it varies depending on the methodology and sample), it's consistently found that there is a significant pay gap.

There is definitely a consistent gender pay gap in most countries - more than just "unequal pay for equal work", it can also be due to hiring biases, women not given the same opportunities as men and so on.

But the claim of a single pay gap is also misleading - there are larger pay gaps for black people, people with moderate to severe disabilities (if they are able to get a job at all), yet few people seem to want to talk about these pay gaps. It is not too surprising that most women who frequently cite the gender pay gap (while ignoring other pay gaps) are usually white ablebodied women working in skilled fields in western countries.

 

[TiredSam]

It is not too surprising that most women who frequently cite the gender pay gap (while ignoring other pay gaps) are usually white ablebodied women working in skilled fields in western countries.

That could perhaps be explained by the fact that the people you describe are the only pay-gap victims in powerful enough positions to not be afraid to open their mouths. Those lower down the payscale may be worried about losing their jobs for complaining, so keep their mouths shut because a low-paid job is better than no job.

I've just read "Nickels and Dimes" by Barbara Ehrenreich (author of "Smile or Die") in which she took a series of low-paid jobs (Wallmart, hotel cleaning, waitressing etc), and discovered a number of reasons why no-one complains or steps out of line. A very recommended read.

 

[sb4]

There is definitely a consistent gender pay gap in most countries - more than just "unequal pay for equal work", it can also be due to hiring biases, women not given the same opportunities as men and so on.

But the claim of a single pay gap is also misleading - there are larger pay gaps for black people, people with moderate to severe disabilities (if they are able to get a job at all), yet few people seem to want to talk about these pay gaps. It is not too surprising that most women who frequently cite the gender pay gap (while ignoring other pay gaps) are usually white ablebodied women working in skilled fields in western countries.

What about the pro Asian pay gap? Why does nobody talk about this?

Are people paying asians more just because they are asian? Or is it asian culture that values education and work more?

It's too easy to look at the gap and immediately assume sexism / racism. It's more nuanced.

 

[JamBob]

What about the pro Asian pay gap? Why does nobody talk about this?

Are people paying asians more just because they are asian? Or is it asian culture that values education and work more?

It's too easy to look at the gap and immediately assume sexism / racism. It's more nuanced.

I don't really see how your example is comparable. If Asian people in the US have better qualifications than their white counterparts - then it wouldn't be discrimination to pay them more.

If on the other hand a male and female both have identical CVs and experience and apply for a STEM job and the male is offered higher pay, more mentoring and is seen as "more capable" by both male and female employers - then I would suggest there may be some systemic bias at work. Eg. http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer

 

[JamBob]

ME is not the only disease/problem that is treated in a sexist way by the medical profession. Women take longer to get their brain tumours diagnosed and will have their symptoms dismissed as "anxiety/psychosomatism", women presenting with a heart attack are more likely to get fobbed off as "anxious". Women's pain is less likely to be treated seriously and they are less likely to be given adequate pain medicine. Autoimmune diseases (more common in women) often come with a delayed diagnosis because symptoms are attributed to the woman's weak emotional constitution/homelife/lovelife etc.

If you consider the way that people (mainly women) with fibromyalgia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, endometriosis etc. are treated as emotional/anxious/psychosomatisers then it would seem that the treatment of people with ME is just part of a wider pattern of ingrained sexist attitudes towards unexplained symptoms that mainly affect women.

I have a bunch of autoimmune diseases and have seen the gendered bias in action.

If T1 diabetic patients (equal female/male split) complain that insulin isn't working well for them or that their life is badly impacted by diabetes - doctors respond by offering different treatments/researching better treatments and actively conduct research aiming to find a cure.

If patients (mostly women) with hypothyroidism complain that their thyroxine isn't working well for them or their life is badly impacted by hypothyroidism - doctors respond by saying there is only one treatment (which they claim works well for everyone) and that any woman who is complaining must be mentally ill, have an unrewarding life, should get more sex, should accept that feeling bad is part of being a woman etc. As a patient with both diseases which have similar causation, the contrast is stark.

 

[sb4]

I don't really see how your example is comparable. If Asian people in the US have better qualifications than their white counterparts - then it wouldn't be discrimination to pay them more.

If on the other hand a male and female both have identical CVs and experience and apply for a STEM job and the male is offered higher pay, more mentoring and is seen as "more capable" by both male and female employers - then I would suggest there may be some systemic bias at work. Eg. http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer

I was simply making the point that there are various factors at play.

Hmm, not got time to read but the study was interesting , now I need to know if it's legit (it seems person conducting study could have bias, have other studies found same), how big is effect, what is solution , is this swings and roundabouts (will people preferentially employ women in child caring, etc)?

 

[Snowdrop]

It's too easy to look at the gap and immediately assume sexism / racism. It's more nuanced.

If there is evidence of pay inequality that is preferential to Asian employees than I I don't see that as nuance just racism that is not preferential to whites. Racism isn't just a white issue white power inequality over other cultures has just predominated of late.

 

[sb4]

If there is evidence of pay inequality that is preferential to Asian employees than I I don't see that as nuance just racism that is not preferential to whites. Racism isn't just a white issue white power inequality over other cultures has just predominated of late.

But why would a predominantly white nation be pro asian racist? It seems far more likely that asian culture is responsible.

 

[ahimsa]

Privilege is a term that can be confusing. I wish another term had been coined.

It has nothing to do with money or other types of privilege. It has to do with being seen as "the default" vs. "the other", stereotypes, and other issues. Think of it as being given the benefit of the doubt.

I think this XKCD comic strip is a good explanation of male privilege:

( found at https://xkcd.com/385/ )

The term white privilege was coined by Peggy McIntosh.

https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White Priviledge Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.pdf

For those of us with ME (and other diseases that are disabling) we run into able-bodied privilege. For example, people assume that we can do all sorts of activities (they keep asking, "why is xxxxx such a big deal?"). But something that's easy for a healthy person may be a huge burden (or impossible!) for us. The spoon theory is one way of trying to explain this problem.

If you start by trying to understand able-bodied privilege then the other forms of privilege might make more sense to you.

I hope this helps!

I'm not up to long debates or discussions so please don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond to this thread very much. But if you tag me (using @ ) then I will try to get back here!

PS. Please excuse any errors and correct me as necessary. I don't claim to be an expert on these things!

PPS. Edited for a few typos and for clarity. Also, privilege is not meant to shame or blame the person who has it. It's simply a term used to describe things.

 

[lilpink]

QED wrote a reply to Petra's review (review 8/2/17) on Amazon review page for Suzanne O'Sullivan's 'It's All in Your Head' .

https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R7D...wContentID=Mx3J9JQ3H9IQ4QS&store=digital-text


They discuss a new sexist paper in BMJ (see final paragraph) -" How should we manage adults with persistent unexplained physical symptoms?"

http://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.j268


Well worth a read, especially if you think that there isn't a sexism issue at play with ME or MUS!

 

[Woolie]

Thanks for the article, @lilpink. This is the bit I think you mean:

Observational studies in primary care report that women, especially those aged 35-45 years, more commonly present with these symptoms.

Yea, this is code for "see, it must be psychological, all those crazy middle aged women!"

You have to laugh just a bit at this article though. They say "Oh well, it must be psychological, but strange how psychotherapy and psychoactive drugs don't seem to help much! Guess we just need to try harder to prove that therapy works"

But I suppose at least they do try to acknowledge some of the problems with research in this area, which is something the PACE trial authors seem unable to do:

A Cochrane review examined different forms of psychological therapy (21 randomised controlled trials (RCTs), 2658 participants) including cognitive behavioural therapy, behaviour therapies, third-wave cognitive behavioural therapy (mindfulness), psychodynamic therapy, and integrative therapy in patients with somatoform disorders or persistent physical symptoms.12 Taken altogether, psychological therapies were effective in reducing symptom severity compared with usual care or waiting list, but effect sizes were small and psychological therapies had higher dropout rates than usual care. No harms or side effects were reported. The overall quality of evidence is low due to a high risk of bias with lack of blinding of the participants, therapists, and outcome assessors.